@Artiom Komolov a UN proclamation is not the same thing as ground truth. I don’t care what bureaucrats say, show me Ukrainian government presence in Crimea, military, law enforcement, courts? It is all Russian and given the Crimean Bridge the physical control is cemented as well as vital transportation ting Russia to Crimea. Given there was no military fight aside from Ukrainian Boats being humiliated I wouldn’t even call the borders disputed. If Ukraine isn’t willing to fight for it back then there is no dispute.

OSM isn’t the UN it works on ground truth not the hoes and wishes of pompus bureaucrats. Change the ground truth or forget about it. Physical control is an objective measure that resolves disputes when push comes to shove. Taiwan and China, India and Pakistan, Ukraine and Russia. If OSM gives in then what you have endless no win disputes that come down to opinions rather than objective facts.

@velmyshanovnyi you have to back up your property with some amount of force. Thief breaks into house owner shoots thief with shotgun. Thief breaks into house owner calls police and police shoot thief. Ukraine hasn’t lifted a finger to defend or protect Crimea. Furthermore when dealing with countries their one major property is to be the monopoly of legitimate violence in a geographic region, they were pushed out without a fight. Effectively you don’t have the property if there is no forced used to take it back and you effectively don’t control it and the authorities aren’t going to lift a finger either to take it back. Their job was to protect their areas and make sure no outside forces come in and they failed miserably. Ukraine is like calling the police and they just sit outside eating donuts crying about how dangerous the thief is and instead of protecting the house they write passive aggressive letters and threaten pedestrians that walk on the side walk. At the end of the day borders are controlled by force either forcing the citizens within through law or literally forcing invaders out, simply put without any presence of the Ukrainian government and no real challenges to the border, it simply isn’t being disputed. Again it’s pathetic.

@velmyshanovnyi the only thing more pathetic than your desperate snitching is the patheticnes of the Ukrainian Military as they get humiliated again and again over and over again by the Russians. Really all the DWG did was state a fact, based on the objective facts gathered on the ground. OSM isn’t picking a side they have objective measures for which they come to the decisions. In this case control of the area is the metric for which the border is drawn. If you were to go to Crimea you wouldn’t see the Ukrainian government at all the Ukrainian government coward and ran and the military has cowardly done nothing. You want to turn your back on fundamental principles and promote border that lie about ground truth. But hey having no principles is fine for a cowardly snitch that has to try to bully others to get their way because they don’t have the facts on their side.

@Kilkenni apparently Russia is far better at protecting it’s borders than Ukraine whose only defense is to cry to the UN and to OSMF. Push comes to shove Russia still controls the area, and isn’t afraid of further humiliating the Ukrainian military. As for what other countries responses towards people that travel there it is within what they can enforce in the borders they control. As an American there are places I just can’t legally travel to but that is how it is. I still will stick to ground truth and hold to those principles unlike some people and still can not care less what ridiculous desperate proclamations get put out. Admit to yourself that Russia controls Crimea and unless you want to go try to challenge that with physical force good luck( I’ll even cheer for you).

@velmyshanovnyi yes people with self inflated importance of their opinions will have fanciful claims that differ from reality. However even in there they want Russia to release it which would imply Russia has it therefore Russian Territory.

Groundtruth is king, the completion of the Crimean Bridge cemented Russian rule in Crimea like it or not. If anyone would go to Crimea they would be subject to Russian law, have the borders protected by Russian military and would pay Russian taxes. Other than fanciful claims in which concrete ways is Crimea on the ground part of Ukraine? Ground truth has always been a core principle of OSM any you want us to turn our backs on one of our core values. Who are you to demand such things? The map should reflect reality as bleak or upsetting as it may be. Crimea now and for the foreseeable future is part of Russia. I don’t see the Ukrainian military challenging that fact as well. You need to come to terms with reality and put aside nationalistic pride and try to look at things more objectively.

@Tomas Straupis the only ones in power in the area are the Russians, a “recognized” country and major power in the region. They took it proclaimed it as theirs and have maintained it. By your standard the Russians have it.

@Larry0ua what is your definition, should be bring back Silesia to OSM, maybe show the Native American tribes instead of the USA? How rediculous do you want this to get, without a clear-cut definition of the general area IE administration and other governing factors how else do you choose the borders. Do we get pixie dust and say I do believe and magically the borders change. All governments are based on force all of them claim a monopoly of legitimate violence in said geographic regions Now when one takes the other’s land and they are the ones administering it and it isn’t being challenged then it is clearly theirs now. No amount of wishing will change that, now you can wage a Guerilla war and may have a chance of getting it back but that is left to be seen and that is not a problem for mappers. Until the administration and occupation of the Russians comes to an end it should be in the Russian’s borders. Just look at Hawaii that is in the US borders and that was taken over dubious tactics anybody can bring up an argument but simply put OSM isn’t the UN it isn’t some NGO and it isn’t a pulpit to try to push lies about the ground truth for political posturing, you state what is not what you like. To do otherwise would not only violate ground truth but also mapping for the renderer both of which are some of the highest taboos in OSM.

I am sorry if I got a bit heated on what @Larry0ua brought up about ground truth for administrative borders, and yes there is some truth to that, as the exact demarcation is a bit tricky. This is what the DWG needs to work out niggling over the little minutia. That being said administration is evidence of ownership and is far more concrete than merely a competing claim with no force to back it up. Administration is based on force and you can prove that a given area is controlled by a given group. I personally have no problem with mapping claimed areas, conflict areas where administration and borders are in flux and other ways of adding detail but the default area should reflect ground truth. If others want to make fantasy maps with Crimea as part of Ukraine go for it, but the default borders should reflect actual on the ground administration in all cases

@Kilkenni If a government is threatening violence for non compliance of a map that is a terrorist threat, meant to induce fear to comply with the political will of those issuing the threat. The freedom to state an objective fact and put that in a map should be absolute and not be infringed. Russia controls the land it is observable fact, I am not Russian and I can see that clear as day. I don’t want wishful thinking and political dictates to control OSM but ground truth and a real accurate map. I don’t care if the truth hurts but it is what it is people in Ukraine, people in the EU and people in the USA need to grow up and deal with the reality. As I said put up or shut up, you don’t like that Russia has control take it back or be quite on the matter petty threats against cartographers to dictate what they do and how they show the map is beyond petty. Facts over Feelings and the dictates of whatever funny looking robed people say with inflated worth of their opinions(judges). like in the book 1984 it is Four finders not Five, like you want to push. Facts or Facts and they just can’t be dictated to be true by the courts they actually have to have ground truth.

@Kilkenni yes borders are not allways apparent but the best we have to go by is what is enforced and agreed to. It there is no dispute follow the convention if there is a dispute, try to be as rational as possible and take into account who is enforcing laws, who is collecting taxes and who has the military presence in the area. Those are areas that can be validated and will give greater credence to the border given a dispute than some pompous government official or NGO member’s opinion.

I know this goes against some prevailing opinions in governments including the one for which I reside but I simply don’t care what a Bureaucrat says it what is enforced. In this case might makes right as in two sides have a dispute but one has the force to back up the claim it simply is that easy. OSM can’t go sucking up to different NGOs and Governments it needs to be objective. OSM can work with NGOs and Governments as long as OSM stays true to it’s values and principles. The whole compromise is the false middle fallacy.

In the case of OSM being attacked by courts and governments, that shows the lack of freedom in those countries. OSM shouldn’t pander to such bad actors that have to use violent threats, if they give in then China will want their way and Pakistan will have their way. The EU isn’t special they shouldn’t magically get extra rights, neither should the US or India or Pakistan. Once you give in to terrorist threats you will get more of them and the whole system based on objectivity crumbles. “Truth is Treason in the Empire of Lies” –Ron Paul

All countries are a monopoly of violence within a given land mass. You cheer for your gang others cheer for their gang and they have so much pride because they were pushed out of their mothers kicking and screaming on that given land mass controlled by that given gang. The borders are to show what gang is in control of what territory and in Crimea it is the Russian Gang. Now the other gangs can pout and get all petty and passive aggressive but they don’t have the land. Again I am impartial on this and Crimea as the default standard border should be part of Russia because the Russian gang is controlling the territory. We can play games and play pretend, but facts don’t care about people’s feelings. I can pretend there are no gangs and erase all the borders, that is what I would like in an ideal world but that isn’t the case and I am not going to advocate for what I wish, but for what is. Sanctions are not the same as control and on the ground truth. History is filled with countries fighting back and forth and getting land back or losing land, look at pre-WWI maps compared to after WWII. Bad things happen in war, and some countries lose. Ukraine lost and doesn’t have the manpower to take it back and is resorting to passive aggressive tactics to pretend like it still has the territory. I am American and I can could not care less what the politicians proclaim when it comes to OSM. Ground truth is king, facts over feelings.

Tomas Straupis it is that simple facts over feelings. I doesn’t matter if Russia is an aggressor or not or the morality of their actions, all that matters is ground truth. OSM should not lie to people about what they should expect on the ground because someone’s feelings may be hurt by reality. And all this FUD and fearmongering to pressure OSM to lie because you know ground truth the one major principle OSM abides by is not inline with the international community is tough luck. OSM isn’t about picking sides of wars and determining who the moral victor is and awarding them borders it is about assessing the on the ground facts and creating a map of the entire world based around that. If OSM strays from that it ceases to be a map but just a database of lies and deceit. Ukraine doesn’t control Crimea, they lost and if they want it back they have to fight for it IRL, then when they win It should go back to them on OSM until then it shouldn’t plain and simple. If I worked in Crimea I would be paying Russian taxes, if I committed a crime I would be charges under Russian Law, if I needed a passport I would need to get a Russian Passport. I am impartial to both Russia’s and Ukrain’s claims I just care about the facts, and OSM’s reputation will be hurt if it misrepresents the truth of the matter on the ground. I want a map to tell me what actually is not what someone happens to feel about an issue at any given moment. That is true in Russia, Ukrain, Pakistan, India, Egypt, Sudan, Israel or any country with borders disputes. Ground Truth is objective, filters out bias and is verifiable and that is far better metric than opinions and endless arguing.

Tomas Straupis I am not calling for wars but calling for truth. If Ukraine wants territory it has to be able to control it plain and simple. It isn’t cooperating with Russia to state the fact that they control the area, to claim otherwise would be a lie. OSM is supposed to be above all political disputes, if you give in here and lie to everyone about the ground truth then India and Pakistan will bring in their disputes, and so on and so forth. I was not in favor if ISIS but believed they should have been represented on the map out of ground truth. Once you step outside of ground truth for border you open a floodgate of controversies. This may be personal issue but you have to try to be impartial and objective here.

I think the sensible policy would be to change the areas that Russia controls to show Russia controls them. We can play the game of he said she said when it comes to territory but physical control should be the only determining factor when it comes to borders. If countries want the borders back they simply need to take back control of the area if they don’t then simply they should shut up about the border (put up or shut up policy). When it comes to active military zones where boarders are changing constantly, then having a 6 month snapshot policy or conflict area boarder that shows that the area is an active military zone where borders are in flux. I side with the Russians on this because when it comes to borders it has to be ground truth, who controls it, who is enforcing laws, who is collecting the taxes. If you don’t do that then you simply are misrepresenting the area. If I am traveling or living in an area I don’t care about what some random Bureaucrat says some international law is I care about the ground conditions. If you think otherwise then you are impractical and are opening OSM to various different conflicts that simply cannot be resolved. Ground truth is the fundamental principal that resolves disputes and creates the simplest impartial resolution. What are your thoughts?

I would say ground truth, whoever is physically controlling the landmas gets the border. If Catalonia runs things and Spain only politically disputes it it spins off as it’s own country. If Spain sends in troops / replacement police and occupies Catalonia then it remains as part of Spain’s borders.

How long does it usually take from version release to deployment on OSM.org?

I would love if you did this for New Haven, it has nearly 100% building coverage non import pure community effort.

The problem is that Maps.Me has outdated maps, sometimes being months behind or more. POIs could have been added which all ready exist and the contributors just simply don’t know. The editor is new and being aimed at new contributors it is even harder to design for. There may be a Maps.Me bot that cleans up edits or the editor may be able to check if similar data all ready exists in the area and warn the contributor. Their UI is mostly on track and with a few future fixes these problems should be ironed out. OSM needs a larger POI dataset and Maps.Me wants to make it easier to allow new users to contribute it.