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48263622 over 8 years ago

I didn't remove any tag, I just switched from amenity to aeroway. There were 9 tags before and now it's the same.

47405988 over 8 years ago

Yes, that's a problem I wanted to solve.
Both ways were invented in 2010 (see history), but no one took action since then to clarify this. IMHO it's better to keep it simple, which means as much as possible in a single entry, not with additional keys if it's not necessary. But as long as there are only complaints about "missing discussion", without constructive input, I don't feel motivated for further data quality improvement.
Feel free for any proposals.

47546592 over 8 years ago

I talked to the data consumers (which weren't consuming the "service" tags up to now). The major problem were the "motorcycle_repair" tags, which have also been "invented" without proper discussion, see osm.wiki/Talk:Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle_repair
I'm aware about the "automated edit" problem, but it it doesn't apply in this case.
I sure won't do such a change again.

47523302 over 8 years ago

Would you please add your concerns to the discussion page ? (So everyone may add his/her point of view) :
osm.wiki/Talk:Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle

47523302 over 8 years ago

What do you think about that ?
osm.wiki/Talk:Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle_repair

47406436 over 8 years ago

mea culpa, I checked the others, seems I didn't pay attention to this, correcting them now

47406436 over 8 years ago

That's right, I corrected it.
Pretty strange as I was sure I checked the entry when I answered ("Sorry for the late answer"). I once had an effect that a history entry disappeared (I edited an entry, later someone else edited it again, my edits were still there, but the history entry missing). Did you check it at the beginnig of the discussion ? (As this pretty important detail wasn't mentioned first, I assume you would have done that)

47406436 over 8 years ago

Regarding DWG : Sent this message with explanations of my actions and was then unblocked immediately : woodpeck 4. April 2017 15:45
"well documented" is really an euphemism for the status before.
- (motorcycle) "clöthes" was not defined
- for "rental" there were three different types of tagging, none of them really defined
- scooter couldn't be differentiated from "real" motorcycles
- repair also had two types of tagging
I agree with you that "it's very likely that not a single tool out there is interpreting this tag at all", as up to now it wasn't possible due to the diversity of "service tags" alternatives.
Regarding "well documented since years", check the comments in the discussion :
osm.wiki/Talk:Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle
What I've done is to take the "de facto" / "in use" "service tags" and given them some structure. I also got a couple of feedbacks that the affected people are really glad about it.
This is a nice example, he also tried to use a similar format as there wasn't a ("well documented") possibility to express that :
osm.org/node/4060206892/history

47406436 over 8 years ago

Sorry for the late answer, didn't get the notification somehow.
- Who is DWG ?
- Could you send me some examples for the "lost information" issue ?
- spelling mistakes shouldn't have happened as I mostly use copy & paste for the tags, but if you find errors, I'll correct them
- I can't see "removing an established tagging scheme completely", as I used the usual "service tags", just with the prefix motorcycle:.
- same for "not been used at all before"
The "service tags" have been invented in 2010 an widely been used since then :osm.wiki/w/index.php?title=Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle&diff=548821&oldid=517671
I used the scheme established with shop=bicycle in 2011 :
osm.wiki/Proposed_features/service:bicycle

47534019 over 8 years ago

"A shop that [...] OR repair and rental services." is not "clearly selling" motorcycles. If you'd likie to make it clear, you may use motorcycle:sales=no, then it should be very clear.
Just a similar example : how would you map a motorcycle clothes shop ?
If you feel the shop should be switched back, fell free to do so.

47523302 over 8 years ago

In my point of view it's just another way to express the same thing (and to enable people to tag further properties of the item).
It would be great if you'd propose how to solve this (in your point of view) "issue" instead of keeping on complaining. In the last seven years there would have been enogh opportunities to distinguish between the two possibilities, but no one took action.
In case you'd like to switch back to this (never voted on, "Status: De facto") key, feel free to do so. We'll see what the majority will map.

47523302 over 8 years ago

Hi Dave, I'm not sure whether you read my answers. The description of shop=motorcycle INCLUDES REPAIR SINCE 2010 : "A shop that sells motorcycles and/or related accessories, clothes, parts, repair and rental services."
osm.wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle
So this is NOT 'definitely does sell bikes'
If a shop mainly repairs, but sells a used bike from time to time, which key would you use ? I won't tag the shop to "motorcycle:sales=no" as I can't say whether it was just sloppily tagged AND/OR if it meanwhile still applies (might be he now sells motorbikes).

47534019 over 8 years ago

Hi muralito,
the description of "shop=motorcycle" was including this since 22 October 2010 :
"A shop that sells motorcycles and/or related accessories, clothes, parts, repair and rental services."
So there were several different ways to tag this (and others like clothes and rental). There are also other "shops" that don't necessarily sell goods (such as laundry or tattoo).
When using different "main keys" for motorcycle-related items (whose difference isn't clearly described), it won't improve the data quality. As an example : if a garage mainly repairs bikes, but sells used bikes beside, what is it, shop or repair ? (There were also several items tagged as "repair" whose name was "Honda" or "Yamaha", don't think they are really just repairing)
If "motorcycle:sales=no" applies, you may certainly add it.

47546592 over 8 years ago

It's not about "to match an obscure scheme that on an unrelated web page that no-one is likely to read", it's about using a scheme which is easier to understand for the users (main Key shop=mototrcycle, sub-Keys motorcycle:*=*) and avoids confusion about different ways to tag the same thing. If there are three different ways to tag "motorcycle rental", you will have problems to filter that. The "services tags" exist since 22 October 2010, see :
osm.wiki/w/index.php?title=Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle&diff=548821&oldid=517671
The motorcycle:*=* format is based on the "Tags used in combination" of shop=bicycle (and contact:*=* etc), so it's not unusual. See also :
osm.wiki/Proposed_features/service:bicycle
(has been discussed since 2011-04-17)

47523302 over 8 years ago

Hi Dave,
the former tagging was :
name Pete Robson
service MOT_motorcycle
shop motorcycle_repair
Now it is :
motorcycle:repair yes
name Pete Robson
service MOT_motorcycle
shop motorcycle

The description of shop=motorcycle
says since 15 August 2010 :
"A shop that sells motorcycles and/or related accessories, clothes, parts, repair and rental services."

The "service tag" was at this time :
repair=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/... - repairs / maintains motorcycles

osm.wiki/w/index.php?title=Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle&diff=548821&oldid=517671

So there were several possibilities to tag a shop with "repair". The same applies for rental and clothes.

Concerning this actual shop, I didn't use motorcycle:sales=no, as I can't say whether it (meanwhile) possibly sells used bikes.

In case your problem is about the term "shop" : There are other "shops" also which don't sell (physical) goods, i.e a tattoo shop or a laundry.
We could possibly make this point more clear in the wiki.

The goal (of the "switch" to the "shop" tagging is to "standardize" the tagging of motorcycle-related shops. This should avoid misunderstandigs because of different interpretation when something is mainly "repair" or "shop". Also, frontends should get a chance to use these parameters easier (for example to filter on "motorcycle:*.*" to list the properties).
Any improvement idea is certainly welcome.

47523302 over 8 years ago

I'not sure whether I get the point.
Which discussion do you mean, this one ?
osm.wiki/Proposed_features/service:bicycle
And do you mean I should confirm whether this shop sells motorcycles ?
osm.org/node/3179844246
(can't do that as my crystal ball is broken ;-) )

47533284 over 8 years ago

I can't check it personally. Left a "fixme" entry. In case you can check it directly, you may certainly edit it.

47523302 over 8 years ago

A shop=motorcycle doesn't have to sell motorcycles. It's possible they repair, sell tyres, clothes or other stuff. To enable frontends to filter this, I'm standardizing the key. This means the "main" category is "shop", the "subcategories" motorcycle *:* (called "services"). The services existed already since 2010, but weren't easy to filter and there was a mixture of different keys in use. Let me know if I should explain that more precisely in the wiki.

47460729 over 8 years ago

What could be the benefit of "keeping it together" ? The (single) key is in status "used", which means it occured but wasn't "designed". There are even more "repair" tags as a single key which doesn't make sense to me (if it's usually used together with another key, i.e. shop)

47406436 over 8 years ago

It's not mechanical, but manual