Thank you again for your long post which was very informative and useful.

A youtube link to a screen cast video, I have made, of my experience using the “mapwithai-dev” plugin for the “josm-latest.jar” version of JOSM is contained within my diary entry linked here osm.org/user/ABZ_OSM/diary/393621

I did not find the plugin very useful, becasue, locally, here in Aberdeen, Scotland, Europe, all our roads are already in OSM.

What we need is for AI to suggest auto traces of buildings, for completing the next level of detail.

Surely all Facebook need to do is run the ai algorithim on a world map satelite imagery data set and release the building tracing files?

Thank you again for your long post which was very informative and useful.

Thank you for your post. I did not realise all this very beneficial mapping work was going on at Facebook. I saw the linked video on your site which shows that Facebook work has populated hundereds of thousands of kilometers of roads in Thailand. This is good work!

At least a couple of us on here, discussing talks at a recent STOM 2020 Baltic, in Riga, Latvia, osm.org/user/Zkir/diary/392427 had subsequently tried the AI over trace plugin for JOSM. Neither of us could get it to auto over trace buildings, which would then be human verified as acceptable traces.

Auto over trace of buildings would be a signifcant technology change for mapping, as it would allow us to detail our local communities much much faster. The laborious nature of hand tracing is what is holding things up, as so many of us know.

If you know how auto tracing buildings can be done with JOSM, then perhaps you could make a video, demonstrating this, to make everything clear, or point me to a working resource, and I will make a youtube video and link it on the wiki and post the link up here on the diary forum.

Thank you again, this is very good work.

Hi Øukasz ,

It does help thank you.

Thank you also for your response, which includes nice overpass queries, which is very informative.

I am quite familiar with overpass and have used it extensively, but am certianly no expert, and often struggle with putting queries together, particularly the complex queries.

I can indeed see the remaining and the deleted node, at the camp, by time.

I had, during my searches, some days earliear, found and used a very similar, if not exactly the same query, for isolating changes to the chemical plant. Your query shown below :

[bbox:{{bbox}}][date:”2020-07-02T09:59:00Z”];
(
node[amenity=refugee_site];
);
out geom;

Specifically I used the

[date:”2020-07-02T09:59:00Z”] \

statement.

I feel that something looking like this

[date_between::”2020-07-02T09:50:00Z”,”2020-07-02T09:59:00Z”] \

would be much more useful, for such a query, simply to know the query is isolated in a time frame. Certianly SQL does allow a query between two time stamps.

I searched for such a possibility but found nothing in my searches.

Also, I do not understand the difference between

out;

and

out geom;

why would you choose one and not the other?

If I tag you @GOwin, as @AkuAnakTimur has done above, does that flag up so you will see it?

That is very helpful, thank you :)

That is a very interesting reply, thanks, with lots of useful information.

>“Numbering on one side of the street jumps from 3 to 13.”

I have never seen that. I am surprised by this becasue often the builder / developer leaves number 13 out. Apparently it is an unlucky number. Do you have any anecdotal information regards the reason 3 to 13 is left out.

When I mapped Newtonhill, Aberdeen, Scotland, Europe, I found this very curious situation. 2, 2 and 2a. Click on the house to see the associated street. This must create some difficulty for folks on that corner osm.org/#map=19/57.03258/-2.14992

Later, below, I have included a neat MapCSS query which makes everything clear. Scroll down to see link.

I mapped 99.9% of Newtonhill, having surveyed it countless times, and it is just south of West Cammachmore. If you croll down just a bit from West Cammachmore you will see it. Around Skateraw there is an interesting mixture of names and numbers.

And here is a case of number 52 beside number 52, again in Newtonhill. That will have caused some interesting situations. osm.org/#map=19/57.03721/-2.14890 Click on the house to see the associated street.

Later, below, I have included a neat MapCSS query which makes everything clear. Scroll down to see link.

>“Houses with an address on one street, but their entrance on a different street.”

Yes when I mapped Portlethen, Aberdeenshire, Scotland, Europe, I found an interesting case of this. You can see houses on Rowanbank Road with an entrance on Cookston Road osm.org/#map=18/57.06349/-2.13136 I mapped 99% of Portlethen, just north of West Cammachmore. There was a lot of walking and checking. It’s not perfect but all the buildings and addressing information is in there.

>“A block of flats where most flats use a communal entrance, but where some flats on the first floor have their own external staircase.”

Yes, this is curious. I have across that before but I have never mapped it, or seen it on OSM. If you have a link to an example I’d appreciate it.

>“Some cul-de-sacs numbered anti-clockwise.”

Do you know if there is an international, Scottish or European defined way of doing this, or does each place follow some sort of local tradition?

>“A single “logical” road having two or more different names, with different numbering schemes. (See Charlton Lane and Greenhills Road.)”

For this reason alone colouring the map becomes imperative. It would give a distinct advantage over GM. I think OSF should consider a colouring the map option to sort this confusion. This will lead to better community connectivity in all sorts of ways.

This query shows clearly which streets 2, 2 and 2a belong to http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/W2F

This query shows clearly which streets 52 and 52 belong to http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/W2H

>“As such, I think it’s useful to add all addresses to the map, even “obvious” ones.”

Yes, and then people can search. I find overpass queries particularly useful for sorting the confusion, I will be doing a number of posts on overpass queries, asking for help in areas where I have no understanding, to follow.

I’ve cleaned it up. Should be easiear to read .. hear goes again. Comment edit would be much easiear. Do you know if it’s there?

How do you edit a comment to improve layout for quotes etc.

I just realised kramdown can show quotes neatly.

Admin, can you add the capability please?

That is a very interesting reply, thanks, with lots of useful information.

• “Numbering on one side of the street jumps from 3 to 13.” I have never seen that. I am surprised by this becasue often the builder / developer leaves number 13 out. Apparently it is an unlucky number. Do you have any anecdotal information regards the reason 3 to 13 is left out.

• When I mapped Newtonhill, Aberdeen, Scotland, Europe, I found this very curious situation. 2, 2 and 2a. Click on the house to see the associated street. This must create some difficulty for folks on that corner osm.org/#map=19/57.03258/-2.14992 I mapped 99.9% of Newtonhill, having surveyed it countless times, and it is just south of West Cammachmore. If you croll down just a bit from West Cammachmore you will see it. Around Skateraw there is an interesting mixture of names and numbers.

And here is a case of number 52 beside number 52, again in Newtonhill. That will have caused some interesting situations. osm.org/#map=19/57.03721/-2.14890 Click on the house to see the associated street.

• “Houses with an address on one street, but their entrance on a different street.” Yes when I mapped Portlethen, Aberdeenshire, Scotland, Europe, I found an interesting case of this. You can see houses on Rowanbank Road with an entrance on Cookston Road osm.org/#map=18/57.06349/-2.13136 I mapped 99% of Portlethen, just north of West Cammachmore. There was a lot of walking and checking. It’s not perfect but all the buildings and addressing information is in there.

• “A block of flats where most flats use a communal entrance, but where some flats on the first floor have their own external staircase.” Yes, this is curious. I have across that before but I have never mapped it, or seen it on OSM. If you have a link to an example I’d appreciate it.

• “Some cul-de-sacs numbered anti-clockwise.” Do you know if there is an international, Scottish or European defined way of doing this, or does each place follow some sort of local tradition?

• “A single “logical” road having two or more different names, with different numbering schemes. (See Charlton Lane and Greenhills Road.)” For this reason alone colouring the map becomes imperative. It would give a distinct advantage over GM. I think OSF should consider a colouring the map option to sort this confusion. This will lead to better community connectivity in all sorts of ways. This query shows clearly which streets 2, 2 and 2a belong to http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/W2F This query shows clearly which streets 52 and 52 belong to http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/W2H

• “As such, I think it’s useful to add all addresses to the map, even “obvious” ones.” Yes, and then people can search. I find overpass queries particularly useful for sorting the confusion, I will be doing a number of posts on overpass queries, asking for help in areas where I have no understanding, to follow.

“The main problem is that OSM data processing is still an art only accessible to the insider. There is no progress here.” (quoting your diary text as produced using google translate)

Yes I have thought about this and potentially volunteering to go out into local universities, and or high schools, to present the advantages of OSM through - an introduction to OSM, and - showing custom maps that can be created with overpass queries, and - giving an introduction to JOSM and mapping with a outdoor survey followed by data entry and upload.

A meaningful introduction takes some time, perhaps 2 half days.

Such an introduction could cross Computer Science, Geography, Social History, History and Modern Studies departments.

Do you know anyone who has done this, and is there an advocacy group?

Thank you for your diary report which I found interesting.

I did not know about the AI plugin for JOSM. I have tried it this morning but could not see any ability to auto over-trace buildings, which would make very useful and save much time.

Hi Øukasz,

thank you for your response.

Quote: “I think there are a lot of issues to unpack in here”. Yes.

The particular question I put was about a particular installation, however I see there are a range of possible answers and interpretations about what constitutes a sensitive location, and there are many possibilities for sensitive site types.

eg a refuge for women from abuse, as was already pointed out in this post. Clearly such a location is sensitive and only a person intended to be there and relevant Social services should know the location. Not somewhere to be mapped.

There is always more to learn.

This chemical plant in question was a hush hush topic locally, even though I had to walk all the way around it within the site, where I was welcome.

Quote: “As for the example you mention - it could be the locals who deleted the plant, or it could be anyone else in the country - or outside of it - that knew of its sensitive status and just checks in every now and then if it didn’t get mapped by someone. “

I think it was something like that. Though I can’t remember how to use https://osmcha.org to find out if I ever mapped it in the first place.

I’m happy to leave the deletion, if it was indeed deleted, alone; I understand that what is a good mapping opportunity to me may constitute an threat to others.

This should be respected.

In any case antagonising anyone over this seems poinless, but exploring the ideas around what makes something a sensitive issue is always worth it (If you have enough conversational energy left and it’s not to far towards the end of the day :-) ).

All insights on sensitive sights are welcome :)

*discreet

There would be no reason to know such an address unless working for Social services in which case the obligation to discretion is both professional and obvious.

It is very unfortunate that there are people who need refuge services.

Yes, purposefully mapping such a place, intended as a discrete location, would be nefarious.

I put my own diary entry up about my mapping Aberdeen’s under ground streams and osm.org/user/GinaroZ may be saw that and made additions, with some very nice work. I think he used an available map I had’nt thought to use, for over tracing, I think an old OS map. I will try to remember that is available for next time.

I have significantly improved the Overpass query https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/VXi

That is an interesting response thank you.

I see you are in West Flanders, and as I reply I am remembering being in the shallows just off Ostende in a yacht in a gale. Shallows anywhere in heavy weather are not plesant.

Ostende itself was a very plesant experience. I’d certianly return.

Regards the ‘chemical plant’ which I think was later removed, I will leave things as they stand. Anyone who looks at the sattelite trace, at that location, or any other, can immediateley see which features / buildings are missing.

I had previously not thought about the moral aspect of mapping locations of refuge, becasue I have not yet knowingly mapped an area containing one.

It’s quite a thought though, even here in Scotland, that a building we innocently map, only with the intention of ‘filling up the map’ may contain a refuge.

Thankfully here, a refuge is generally well managed.

However in un-stabile locations and regions I agree, this would need careful thought.

I have not yet made any contributions to www.HOTOSM.org though I can see sensitivity would certianly / potentially be a consideration in making contributions such as refuges, etc.

I’d be interested in your thoughts on mapping sensitive sites.

As you outline, the OSM community can reject contracted work, becasue for example, the sensitivity of the meaning of a tag / key in Africa vs it’s meaning in Asia.

Sensitivity can also be about strategic sites.

What do we do when we visit a location and unbeknown to us, a large site we are welcome at houses within it a large sensitive site the locals don’t want to talk about.

On such an occasion a fairly innocent question is “Hi, what is that right in front of us?”

It turned out to be, as far as I could gather, a chemicals plant, regarded as strategic, in a fairly unstable region.

Innocent questions as such seem to cause suspicion, though it is not aparent why, when your supposed to be welcome standing next to it !!

I’m fairly sure some of my edits, on that occasion, outlining that plant, were deleted, though how locals would connect “Hi, what is that over there” to OSM I do not know. Perhaps I innocently mentioned OSM at the time.

This nice work reminds me of the somewhat and often buried burn, means stream in the Scots language, that flows through my home town of Aberdeen in Scotland.

It too flows underground in places where local people would be surprised to find it.

I intend to bring it back to local awareness at some point by mapping these hidden sections. I know more or less where it runs, from previous mapping, but have not yet had time to tag it and mark up all the hidden sections.

It too often flows through large culverts.

You can see where it dissapears under the city before it enters the harbour, with this overpass turbo query.

For me the main driver is that google could at any moment switch off google maps or make it a pay for service, say at £1/person/mth. I firmly believe ,maps should be a community resource owned by all that no one potentially has the power to switch off.

There’s countless other reasons to improve OSM. eg ability to see layered data, through histosm.org, overpass-turbo.eu etc.

When folks are in the car looking for my house they get out google maps on the phone, because they don’t yet know about OSM, which is rapidly improving. It seems to me that the number of editors will skyrocket over the next few years, mostly community based and unpaid.

If anyone is looking for paid help with mapping I’m happy to help.

Anyways, today I finally got round to having a struggle with google about the location of my house in Aberdeenshire, Scotland, being in the wrong location. I had tried to feed back the correct location to them countless times through their google maps interface, and had never succeeded. So today I took the plunge and found a way to chat with someone at google via a chat link, and the experience was excruciating. Very helpful guy, but his google interface wouldn’t even let him receive an OSM link to show the exact, correct, location. His employer had blocked anything but google site links on their system. Embarrassing. I really felt for him. He also took ages to understand what I meant by the wrong location, though he was a really nice guy. I found the whole experience painful and eventually we resorted to email to slow things down so he could have a chance to work through it. May be he was a generalist and not a maps expert, who knows. As I said very helpful tho.

Where as in OSM all you do is fire up josm …

.