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This is a follow-up entry to certain comments I’m getting on my other entries, related to tagging scheme inconsistency. I just want to explain this in a separate entry to be able to link to it every time certain argument is used.

Every country, nation and culture has own natural language definition (or, I’d say, “vision”) of certain terms, used in everyday life. However, OSM is an international project and OSM data is used regardless of borders. Therefore, having different definitions based on local vision makes OSM data inconsistent. In certain cases it could even make it really hard to interpret. Let me give some examples:

In Russian language, word “ангар”, derived from “hangar” is widely used for quick-assembly hemicylindrical buildings made of metal and used as warehouses in industry. If you will ask anyone in Russia, what is a “hangar”, they will say, that it’s obvious and will give you that description. For person from Britain it will unlikely make any sense, since in English “hangar” means “building for keeping an aircraft in it”. So, if the same British person will see thousands of building=hangar in Russia, located quite far from any airstrip, it will confuse him. Obviously, this is completely wrong usage of building=hangar and it should be actually mapped as building=warehouse, building:material=metal, roof:shape=round, roof:material=metal, building:levels=1or something. But if you’ll try to tell Russian mappers about that, many of them will complain, that it’s “too complicated”, and will continue using building=hangar just “because it’s obvious, everybody knows, that it’s called a hangar”. I know, because I tried. Finally, I just had to re-tag all these warehouses in area I’m watching.

Same thing with American understanding of “pharmacy”. In many other countries, “pharmacy” is a shop, where medications and medical supplies are sold. But in the United States it’s just another supermarket with everything from medications to food, toys and even electronics. Americans know perfectly what they call “pharmacy”. But if you’ll show some photos taken in Walgreens or Rite Aid to any person from country, where pharmacies are not a synonym of supermarket (whatever it is), they will never understand, why this business should be tagged shop=pharmacy, while Safeway (called “grocery store” in the United States) is not a “pharmacy”, even having a prescription medications department and selling basically the same range of products.

In OpenStreetMap, some people think, that it’s okay to rely on their local understanding of words used for tags instead of following documented definitions, because they think inside their own national context. I can’t do anything about it, since these people usually opposing the concept of OSM as semantic spatial database in favor of OSM as map (in form of pictures or something else). But I hope, those who can use logic instead of prejudices, understand this problem as well as I do.

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Discussion

Comment from BushmanK on 24 April 2016 at 20:29

@zeromap,

This is some sort of compound problem, and it can’t be addressed in general except of extreme situation with completely wrong translations (it happens too, unfortunately, and it obviously must be fixed immediately).

People are not ideal and can’t be forced to become ideal. Definition can be clear, everything can be explained in details, but there always are people, who refuse to acknowledge, that OSM is an international project. Education works for newbies, but people with long experience often have certain tendency to think that they know everything and that nothing should be changed. It’s not a problem of having not enough information, it’s a problem of being stubborn.

The whole purpose of this diary entry is to demonstrate at leas two cases, where saying “here in this country, we know what that word stands for” is wrong. At least, because OSM tag keys and values are not “words” - these are abstract terms with (hopefully) documented meaning. And nobody here has any right to redefine this meaning according to local understanding. It sounds obvious and natural, but again, there are real people who don’t want to acknowledge it.

Comment from woodpeck on 24 April 2016 at 22:15

This “problem” has existed in OSM for as long as it has been used internationally. For example, both Germany and France have a distinction between a bakery where you mainly get bread, and a bakery where you mainly get sweet pastries and cake (Bäckerei/boulangerie and Konditorei/patisserie). Both are shop=bakery in OSM. In Italy, people visit a bar for their morning croissant and coffee, while in Germany a bar won’t usually open before 20h. I’m not sure but I think both are amenity=bar too. In Iceland, practically any petrol station has a small eatery attached where you can at least get a soup and bread - this doesn’t have to be mapped explicitly. In other countries this might be a rare exception.

You can’t hammer your computer science thinking into everyone. You can’t get Italians to stop calling their bars bars just because they don’t fall into your bland international definition of “bar”. You can’t tell Icelanders to add “food=yes” to all their petrol stations just because it wouldn’t occur to someone unfamiliar with the country. I think that a little local flavour isn’t a problem for us, and we shouldn’t try to level all these nice national intricacies.

I think that in the long run, we’ll have to have national rendering rules, so that the communities in various countries can decide what is usually shown on their maps and when, and what kind of icon is used. And yes, perhaps in the long run, when every building is tagged with how many seats it has and whether food is sold and what kind and when (in addition to the roof shape and the heating technology of course), then you might even be able to let your computer find out, culture-ignorant, where you can go to buy a slice of cake. But until then it probably depends on the country you’re in whether the shop=bakery around the corner is likely to sell any.

Comment from Vincent de Phily on 24 April 2016 at 22:28

On of my favorite confusing term is “chalet”. It’s originaly a french word where it indicates a small(ish) wooden house in the mountains. But in English (and OSM) the meaning changed to indicate self-catering individual tourist accomodations.

This kind of problem is inescapable with human languages. All we can do is make sure the wiki explains these well, and that editor’s tagging presets are well translated. Ideally they should even be locallised (which is a step above translated), but this requires a lot of work.

Comment from BushmanK on 24 April 2016 at 23:44

@woodpeck,

I’m glad you’ve recognized computer science in my description of this problem. But using a straightforward additional tags, based on scientific approach does not require a degree in database engineering. Is it too hard to add something like product:snacks=yes (that’s just an example) to shop=tobacco if this shop sells chocolate bars and potato chips in addition to cigarettes? It’s not that hard.

I just can’t get it, why the hell people here think that I want to deprecate and prohibit dear old (nonsense) tags? Those who want to continue playing mapping with those tags can do that as long as they want.

But your statement that nobody will use detailed schemes is based on nothing but assumptions. That is typical and it was already proven to be wrong by several existing schemes, which are way less obvious and much harder to use.

Comment from BushmanK on 24 April 2016 at 23:53

@Vincent de Phily,

I hope you are not talking about culture-dependent meaning of each tag, since it’s against the fundamental principle of uniformity. If you do mean it, then our Wiki should be transformed into a study of culturology, which doesn’t seem like realistic task. Also, if tags will have own meaning within the borders of each country, it will render the whole database practically unusable without reading the whole documentation and taking every cultural feature in account. Sounds like an utopia for me. Unlike much more straightforward task of unification, which at least seems to be a finite problem.

Comment from escada on 25 April 2016 at 07:14

Is the root problem: “Real men do not read manuals ?” :-)

I see the same problem here with cafe and pub. In French and Dutch a pub is called a Café/Cafe. So people tag them as amenity=cafe instead of amenity=pub.

What can we do ? Have the editors ask for confirmation when they see you are editing in Russian (language) and want to add a hangar/warehouse ? Something like

“I see you are about to add a building of type hangar. This is meant for buildings were one build aircrafts. In case you want to map ‘ангар’ I suggest to replace it with building=warehouse, …”

and 2 buttons: “replace” & “leave as is”.

??

Would this type of assistance help ? or would it be better to force people to use presets and not be able to type in tags on their own ?

Right now, you have to review and educate, as the tools cannot help you.

Comment from BushmanK on 25 April 2016 at 16:47

@escada,

They, probably, do read manuals (at least, I know it from that case with hangars in Russia), but they think, that “local traditions” are more important. And I don’t see any way to change it, since education is about knowledge, not about attitude. Again, it’s not a problem of being unaware of right way to do that, it’s a problem of being stubborn. In my previous diary entry you can see at least two comments from people from Belgium and Germany, where they also prefer to insist on something like “… but here in our country we think it means that, and it works for us”, which actually means “we don’t give a shit for uniform standards of mapping, we care about our country only”.

Comment from escada on 26 April 2016 at 04:44

I thought you could change attitudes as well through education :-)

Comment from Sanderd17 on 26 April 2016 at 09:13

I read the documentation, but the documentation changed while I was using it …

http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/fSN

Comment from BushmanK on 26 April 2016 at 16:01

@escada,

In theory - yes, if you bring everybody in class and make them listening to several lectures, have debates and so on. But once you can’t even make them read your explanation of something, it’s useless for changing anyone’s existing stubborn attitude.

@Sanderd17,

So, it only shows, that it’s important to keep up with current version of documentation.

Comment from BushmanK on 26 April 2016 at 16:02

Oh, sorry, didn’t mean to use horizontal line for making it a heading. Markdown is full of surprises…

Comment from Carnildo on 26 April 2016 at 23:12

It’s not just natural language that’s the problem. The thing that’s been bothering me lately is “amenity=fuel”. According to the wiki, available gasoline grades should be indicated using the European RON system, but American fuels are graded using the AKI system, and you can’t mechanically convert between the two. For reasonable hydrocarbon blends, an AKI 87 fuel (the most common grade in the US) could be anywhere between RON 91 and RON 93 – which means you can’t tag correctly.

Since you can reasonably assume that any American gas station will have AKI 87 and AKI 93 (or their elevation-adjusted equivalents), I’ve given up on trying to map them, and I’m just concentrating on identifying stations with diesel (which you can’t blindly assume that any given station will have).

Comment from BushmanK on 27 April 2016 at 01:59

@Carnildo,

This is an opposite situation, when there is an actual clear real-life standard. Therefore, certain rule could be introduced, such as using aki:87 value or anything else. It’s a question of motivation in national community.

Comment from Warin61 on 30 April 2016 at 11:23

Getting unpaid volunteers (who actual are paying to contribute e.g. their time) to do something that is against their inclination is extremely difficult. It may be better to act like a tree and bend with the wind rather than try and stand against it?

OSM has to accept that in some parts of the world vehicles are driven on the left side of the road, where as in others they are driven on the right. Perhaps OSM needs ‘local’ definitions for some tags … A Russian ‘hanger’ could be tagged building:ru=hanger much as OSM has for names? And I believe the type of building you refer to is a ‘Nissen Hut’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissen_hut just at add an British flavor to the names :)

Fuel. In some parts of Australia ‘Opal Fuel’ is sold … not ‘regular’ fuel… this is an attempt to stop the young sniffing fuel to get high… leads to brain damage. The RON/etc is the same but visitors get told all sorts of things about Opal Fuel being bad … never seen any real evidence of harm.. and I have used the stuff. I have also used ‘avgas’ (aviation fuel 100) for much the same reason .. again no harm to the engine (lot more lead out the exhaust … but there are very few people out there to suffer from it).

Supermarkets? These too are locally influenced. A super market in Switzerland has lots of chocolate, in France wine. An ‘outback store’ in Australia has kangaroo tails, flour comes in 20 kg bags and the bread is in the freezer. One of the joys of travel is experiencing this stuff.

Enjoy the differences and adapt to them?

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