OpenStreetMap
A copy of my reply posted on the MOBAC Project site:
Posted by DocSeppi on 27 March 2011 in English.Dear OSM Sysadmins please read:
OSM maps, IMHO, are the most important part of MOBAC, since OSM provides the most detailed maps of country areas with no cell phone signal where you depend on using offline maps.
At the same time, my greatest motivation also providing information and creating new tracks in OSM was the possibility using it offline for hiking.
I think your decision to stop providing this offline use with stopping MOBAC downloading OSM maps will many people make stop using OSM at all.
Further, this people will stop providing information to the OSM Project.
Also I of course understand that you want to stop people which are mass downloading gigabytes of data from your servers. Nobody needs to download completely detailed maps (level 16 and higher) of a whole country. But what we need for hiking, running, cycling, is download small area maps quite detailed. I downloaded some maps I used for running and cycling areas and those maps NEVER exceeded 40mb.
My proposals for a possible solution:
1) Map tile downloading programs like MOBAC should have an option to log into OSM with the OSM username and password. And only people who donated to OSM are allowed to (mass) download. Or implanting a payment scheme in OSM for example the right to download 100mb costs 4$, 1G for 20$ and so on. I'm sure people who really want to use or depend on your maps are willing to pay a few bucks.
2) if you still want to provide free data: limit the download volume per IP for example at 100mb per user IP, maybe in combination with the option for the need to log in to OSM before downloading.
You must see, MOBAC depends on OSM maps and the OSM Project depends on programs like OSM. People will stop using OSM if you restrict it. If I didn't use offline OMS maps until today, I would had downloaded ten times as much data for everytime downloading the same few tiles again. Please find a solution soon, Sincerely, DS
Discussion
Comment from rw__ on 27 March 2011 at 17:03
Hi DocSeppi,
I don't know what MOBAC is, and you haven't linked to it, so my response is very generic. I can't possibly discriminate against MOBAC; I don't understand it. ;-)
I'm also not an OSM sysadmin, nor a member of the OSMF board, nor someone who is "in charge" of anything beyond my own little tile server. So, I'm probably not your intended audience.
Now, bulk tile downloads, I do understand. Mappers who are editing consume a few tiles while they edit, and that helps them to do a better job of editing. Tiles are a tool to further improve the map. Tiles are wonderful and that's why OSMF will always[1] provide tiles to mappers. Resources are required to create these tiles, bandwidth, processing, administration, etc.
Bulk tile downloads are also interesting. Having good tiles while off-line really helps the tile-user to have access to maps when bandwidth is inconvenient, unavailable or too expensive. Bulk tile downloads allow the tile-consumer to manage their resources, while consuming resources of the tile provider.
The problem is this. Bulk tile downloads consume more tiles than a typical mapper. Sometimes a bulk downloader consumes 100s of times more tiles than a mapper, other time, much more. That is a problem. Each bulk downloader, is consuming resources that would otherwise support 100s of mappers. And that just doesn't scale.
The sysadmins don't block every bulk tile consumer. They currently only block bulk tile consumers who they notice. And to be noticed they have to stick out like a nailhead sticking out of a hardwood floor.
OSM also provides a method for you, or anybody, to consume tiles in any quantity you choose, without unfairly consuming the resources of mappers; Build your own tile server.
So that is my suggestion for a solution to you. Provide your own tile server for your audience. If your audience is "mappers who hike and want off-line tiles", render awesome tiles for hikers, at the zoom levels that interest them. And provide enough bandwidth that they can download all the tiles they need.
OpenStreetMap _does_ want hikers to contribute. OpenStreetMap _does_ want hikers to use OSM data and tiles to do cool things, even if they aren't contributing new data right at that moment. But OSM is entirely volunteer-run and donation-funded. Nobody should be permitted to consume OSM resources in a way that hurts other potential OSM contributors.
So, how can we help you build your tile server? ;-)
Best regards,
Richard Weait.
[1] Remember, I'm in charge of NOTHING. All of this is my best guess.
Comment from compdude on 27 March 2011 at 17:36
What is MOBAC, anyway?
Comment from DocSeppi on 27 March 2011 at 17:49
Hi Richard!
Sorry, with MOBAC I meant the tool "Mobile Atlas Creator".
Of course I understand your opinion and mostly agree. This is why I suggested the payment method. I have no idea how much a GB of traffic costs but I am willingly to pay for the amount of data of maps I download. Maybe people would then also think twice before bulk downloading whole countries and consuming GBs of data.
As it is at the moment. I have no option to use OSM at some areas (which are not that little) here in Austria, because of no adequate cellphone connection.
And mapping a new track at home in front of a PC is half the fun as you have when you are outside and discover that your are leaving (OSM-)discovered land.
And I must correct you, at this moment, the sysadmins to block every MOBAC user (I use the program to create maps for my Android phone, where I use Oruxmaps on). Yes I did download a few maps, for holidays. In total all these maps were about 150mb, which is not that little as I now see.
Best regards,
Seppi
Comment from TomH on 27 March 2011 at 18:05
It's not just a question of money though - the system administrators are all volunteers and only have a limited amount of time to spend on running everything.
Setting up and running extra tileservers has costs beyond simply financial costs.
Comment from z-dude on 27 March 2011 at 19:44
I've used the Mobile Atlas Creator. I noticed that even Google has issues with people downloading mass amounts of tiles as well. I've triggered a limit with google tiles when creating an offline map for my GPS, and couldn't use Google Maps for a couple of days.
Some ideas:
Put a soft limit into your app: ie, have it keep downloads to 20 megs. It will make users rethink downloading a whole country's tiles at once.
Build a renderer into the app. If Android's Mapdroyd can render tiles on my phone, then your app can render it's own OSM tiles. A bonus feature is that you could have custom render styles for Biking, Cars, Hiking, Taking the Bus, etc.
What would be a benefit for the cycling users if they were to update openstreetmap, and then be able to generate a new cycling map for their GPS (Yes, we all do it to have Custom Maps on our Oregon GPS's) without having to wait a week or so for the heavily loaded OpenCycleMap to render the new bike path.
Comment from Vclaw on 28 March 2011 at 00:45
If you are willing to pay, maybe you should contact one of the companies that can provide OSM based maps and services: osm.wiki/Commercial_OSM_Software_and_Services
I'm sure that provide a tile server allowing bulk downloads for a reasonable fee.
Comment from davespod_bing on 28 March 2011 at 10:34
In addition to the very good suggestions to either build your own tile server, or contact one of the several companies who provide commercial services based on OSM, you might also want to consider the Open Mapquest tiles, based on OSM. I believe they are currently encouraging everyone to use their tiles:
http://open.mapquest.com
Or perhaps CloudMade? (Details on the commercial services page above).
Comment from ColinMarquardt on 28 March 2011 at 20:41
OsmAnd (http://osmand.net/) does awesome vector rendering in the OSM "Mapnik" style in the beta version or the nightly builds. Absolutely recommended.