اوپن سٹریٹ میپ
On implied turn restrictions and armchair mapping
ایہہ 10؍February 2013ء English وچ «NE2» لیکھ چھپیا گیا سی۔ ایہہ 11؍February 2013ء تے پہلا نواں کرنI seem to have flipped from manic (“I can stop a bully with logic!”) to depressive (“what the hell was I thinking”) in the past few hours. Don’t bother me unless kicking a man when he’s down makes you feel bigger.
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Today I made this movement in a Ford [s]Focus[/s] Escape (I’m usually a passenger and pay more attention to the road than details of the car) with no trouble with respect to staying off the striped gore. No signs prohibited this left-and-quick-right. (Note that the national MUTCD gives no prohibitory meaning to the single white line, and neither does Florida law.)
It remains to be seen if this is enough for Paul Johnson, who added a turn restriction prohibiting this movement based solely on aerials.
Discussion
ایہہ 11؍February 2013ء 01:10 تے «dale_p» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
From the Florida handbook PDF page 48, not an article. “Solid White Line A solid white line marks the right edge of the roadway or separates lanes of traffic moving in the same direction. You may travel in the same direction on both sides of this line, but you should not cross the line unless you must do so to avoid a hazard.”
Crossing to make a turn is not avoiding a hazard. Do not remove route restrictions that restrict traffic flow to correct behavior.
Page 36 5.32.1 - Entering and Leaving Expressways also suggests it to be wrong Page 33 5.24 - Making Turns As well “10. Finish your turn in the proper lane. A right turn should be from the right lane into the right lane of the roadway entered. A left turn may be completed in any lane lawfully available, or safe, for the desired direction of travel. See the diagrams for making left turns from or into one-way streets. If you reach an intersection where you wish to make a right or left turn and are not in the proper lane, you should drive to the next intersection. Then make the turn from the proper lane.”
ایہہ 11؍February 2013ء 03:50 تے «compdude» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
Here’s a link to that particular interchange on the map to get the bigger picture: osm.org/?lat=28.36376&lon=-81.56656&zoom=17&layers=M
First of all I don’t know why any normal person except a lost tourist would get off the freeway and then back on. Such a move would be something completely unexpected by other drivers, therefore it would be hazardous and reckless. You can get a ticket for reckless driving, you know.
I don’t know how you can possibly think that such a turn is allowed.
ایہہ 11؍February 2013ء 04:12 تے «NE2» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
dale_p: I can find no basis in law for that passage in the Florida Driver’s Handbook.
compdude: what other drivers? Those stopped at the light?
ایہہ 11؍February 2013ء 05:30 تے «z-dude» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
The marking on the roadway says to make a left turn.
ایہہ 11؍February 2013ء 06:29 تے «goldfndr» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
When you performed this movement, were all stoplights for eastbound Buena Vista Drive red? (is the outermost lane of eastbound not always green? was the lane occupied?)
ایہہ 11؍February 2013ء 08:28 تے «pieleric» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
Hi NE2, It seems Paul Johnson has really carefully put (and put again) the turn restriction there, and pretty unlikely that the people who made this cross road ever envisioned the movement you’ve described as being acceptable. I agree with you that local knowledge always has priority, but the opposite side seems to have a point.
So I’d highly recommend you to not go onto the “edit war” path. Especially, it is not advisable to mention “vendalism” in your commits messages for such behavior: it’s pretty obvious that Paul Johnson is not willfully damaging the map.
The best is that you continue discussing this case on the mailing list, where a discussion is already going on: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2013-February/010341.html
ایہہ 11؍February 2013ء 11:33 تے «NE2» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
alexz: which is what I did. goldfndr: yes. All lanes on Buena Vista get a red.
ایہہ 11؍February 2013ء 11:38 تے «NE2» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
And Paul has indeed gone down the road of denial: “Pretty rich coming from someone who hasn’t ever been in the field.”
I invite anyone who thinks it’s a straight movement to come visit me and drive it together. Because looking at it on the ground it’s definitely a left turn into the rightmost lane.
ایہہ 11؍February 2013ء 14:14 تے «Stereo» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
I think we can all agree that the intersection isn’t designed well. From the tracks on the ground, it does look like people are de facto ignoring the turn restriction if it exists.
I think it all boils down to Florida law. NE2, would you be OK with restoring the turn restriction if crossing the white line is indeed forbidden?
From the code:
ایہہ 11؍February 2013ء 14:19 تے «NE2» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
Stereo: yes, if crossing the white line is forbidden, then the turn restriction should be there. But Florida has adopted the MUTCD, which does not forbid crossing single white lines: http://www.dot.state.fl.us/trafficoperations/Operations/MUTCD.shtm
In fact, where FDOT wants to ban changing lanes, they correctly use a double white line (I was here about a month ago, and got trapped in the right lane, meaning that I had to turn right and U-turn): http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=27.898155,-82.693094&spn=0.008648,0.016512&gl=us&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=27.898372,-82.693102&panoid=7QxqWamyOAk4G0eUvM6tOw&cbp=12,193.68,,1,3.71
ایہہ 11؍February 2013ء 18:58 تے «Scally» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
I suggest you write to the local traffic police, requesting their opinion. It is only polite, and may help.
ایہہ 11؍February 2013ء 20:52 تے «NE2» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
I seem to have flipped from manic (“I can stop a bully with logic!”) to depressive (“what the hell was I thinking”) in the past few hours. Don’t bother me unless kicking a man when he’s down makes you feel bigger.
ایہہ 11؍February 2013ء 23:08 تے «jremillard» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
Please apologize, so everybody can can put the pitchforks down so we can all get back to mapping.
ایہہ 11؍February 2013ء 23:24 تے «NE2» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
I don’t apologize for trying to do the right thing. Especially not with eejits like Steve A trying to profile me as a sociopath who’s in it for the conflict. If I were religious I could take comfort in his going to hell, but nah.
ایہہ 12؍February 2013ء 00:38 تے «jremillard» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
You should apologize for reverting somebodies else’s change without consulting with them first. You should apologize for not finding a way of resolving this disagreement privately (like emailing state of Florida). You should not apologize for being wrong about the turn relation.
You apologizing has nothing to do with anybody else. Believe me, you are not the only person that should be apologizing for this weekends fiasco.
ایہہ 12؍February 2013ء 07:39 تے «z-dude» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
go to hell with your attitude
ایہہ 12؍February 2013ء 11:29 تے «NE2» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
I did consult with Paul first.
ایہہ 3؍March 2013ء 05:31 تے «NE2» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
Linked here for possible future use: http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=29.654025~-81.670804&lvl=20&dir=0&sty=a What’s the point of the southbound left turn lane if not for U-turning into the right turn lane (thereby crossing a solid white line)?
ایہہ 3؍March 2013ء 07:41 تے «NE2» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
PS: I do apologize for the hell comment. That was uncalled for.
ایہہ 4؍March 2013ء 04:56 تے «epcotfan» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
Confirmed yesterday there is no signage prohibiting the described turn. While I think common sense dictates that taking this path is not ideal, there’s not actually a basis legislative or posted basis for the restriction.
ایہہ 31؍March 2013ء 18:57 تے «rw__» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
NE2 said:
“I invite anyone who thinks it’s a straight movement to come visit me and drive it together. Because looking at it on the ground it’s definitely a left turn into the rightmost lane.”
Okay. :-) I look forward to meeting you, talking about OpenStreetMap and doing a little mapping. When and where?
Let’s arrange a mappy hour as well!
ایہہ 31؍March 2013ء 19:24 تے «NE2» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
I’m in Orlando, and you seem to be in Toronto…?
ایہہ 31؍March 2013ء 21:05 تے «Richard» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
SOTM-US 2014!
ایہہ 9؍June 2013ء 06:11 تے «NE2» ٹپݨی کیتی گئی سی۔
Just found this on FDOT’s 2013 map: http://www.dot.state.fl.us/surveyingandmapping/maps/FLStateMap2013.pdf “A single WHITE solid line discourages crossing but does not prohibit crossing.”
PS: I’ve been banned from OSM. Because Benghazi.