As a newbie, I can already see that cycleways need to be better defined, especially if we want an international standard.
The key/legend provided here
http://www.gravitystorm.co.uk/shine/cycle-info/
is just not suitable enough.
What, as a cyclist, do I want to know?
Well, firstly, there are are basically two different types of cycling I do: commuting and recreational. Are there any other types?
Commuting: It's pretty straight forward. I want the fastest safest easiest route to my destination; I want to know all of the government designated and supported routes; as well as the routes most frequented/recommended by other bicycle commuters.
Recreational: I want to get the most fun out of it (and generally, the least amount of traffic and interruptions).
So, different types of cycle paths:
- government sanctioned cycle routes/paths (national, regional, local)
- fastest most direct route (I care not about traffic, bring it on)
- fastest safest most direct route (avoiding main vehicle traffic)
- touring/racing route (scenic long route with fewest interruptions)
- mountain bike route (i.e. road/touring/casual bikes not recommended)
- roads or sections of road to avoid (i.e. too dangerous even if bicycles are legally allowed on the road etc.)
- long/steep gradients (grade percentage)
- surface: paved, gravel
- bicycles not allowed
- bicycles only (path/roadway)
- bicycle & pedestrians (in own lanes)
- bicycle & pedestrians (in same lane)
- bicycle & vehicle (in same lane)
- bicycle & vehicle (in own lanes)
- bicycle & vehicle (bicycle on shoulder)
Did I miss anything major?
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First Pet Peeve:
"Toucan Crossings"?? Come on people, think INTERNATIONAL. And do we really need to identify such crossings on the map? That's just overkill. When we get there, we'll see it, "Oh, a green bicycle, I guess I can cross now and don't have to wait for the traffic light or have to walk my bicycle across." I don't want a map that is cluttered with unimportant tedious details. All we need to know is that it is a crossing, not that Two-Can cross at the same time. Who cares. If you live around there, you'll quickly understand such things. If you are a tourist, you're likely just passing through and will never encounter that crossing ever again in your life. Either or, it's unimportant.
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Note of Possible Interest: Where I live, there are roads that I try to avoid on my bicycle because they are simply too dangerous due to traffic, but the city comes by with their bicycle stencil and marks the road as a bicycle route. Nothing at all has has been done to the road to make it more "bicycle friendly" other than a white bicycle symbol being painted on the road. It may be an official cycleway, but I would not reccomend the route.
Дийцар
Коммент chillly 28 December 2009 22:07
The data is all freely available. If you want to show us all how it's done, please do.
Коммент Scocasso 28 December 2009 23:57
Chilly, if you have nothing constructive or positive to say, I don't think anyone wants to hear it, thanks.
Коммент Baloo Uriza 29 December 2009 00:24
Toucan crossings are pretty well known as a "signal specifically for the bike lane." These are handy things to know about and affect routing more than the map. Don't exclude them just because you don't want them rendered, ie, Don't Tag For The Renderer™. Remember, if you don't like the way the map looks, make your own render of it!
Коммент RichardB 29 December 2009 00:44
But marking crossings *really* aren't "overkill" or "unimportant tedious details". Road crossings come in many forms. Toucan crossings are a UK term, but the cyclemap originated here. Basically, it's any signal-controlled crossing where both cyclists and pedestrians are allowed. That definition can be used internationally. The tags we use are just shorthands. Using these shorthands gets round problems with language difficulties.
Most road crossings in the UK and worldwide do not permit cyclists to cross whilst riding - so marking what type of crossing is actually useful information. In some places like Germany, pedestrians are forbidden from crossing until the green man appears; if you have a piece of routing software, you could build extra time costs for a way in your routing graph if a certain type of crossing is present. I really reject the fact then that crossing type is unimportant.
Коммент Scocasso 29 December 2009 03:31
Okay. I'd never construct my bike route around such crossings, but okay, if some people do...
Коммент chillly 29 December 2009 10:40
@Scocasso: Seriously, if you are so unhappy with the OpenCycleMap, which has won praise and awards and has taken countless hours by volunteers to create, then maybe you can do better.
The OSM way is to map what you find and to tag it as you find it. Different maps then use the tags their authors find useful. There is already more than one cycle map and since your aims are different from other cycle maps (European standardisation, showing different cycle use types, and you don't like different crossing types) the best plan for you might be to render your own map.
I look forward to seeing it.
Коммент Skippern 29 December 2009 14:13
Tags for reality, I didn't know Toucan crossing was a term for some type of signalled bicycle crossings, can't remember seeing anything like that in Norway while I lived there, and I definitely havn't seen any here in Brazil where I live now. For me there exists only two types of crossings to tag, pedestrian crossings, and signaled pedestrian crossings. Bicycles goes more as normal traffic than as pedestrians in Brazil. Nuff said Brazil have some weird laws regarding access for bicycles, that is valuable data for a bicycle routing engine.
Коммент Andy Allan 29 December 2009 15:20
Hi Scocasso,
You might be interested in www.cyclestreets.co.uk - it's a site that combines maps and routing for bicycles and covers many of the ideas you have discussed. I think even in your discussion you show that there's too many different types of bicycle path to show every type differently on the map - it would be a confusing mess! Still, as Chillly suggested, you can experiment yourself to see what works or not.
Коммент Scocasso 29 December 2009 16:43
Thank you all for your comments. Seems we might need different legends depending on the country - or perhaps even provinces/states have different methods in certain countries. In Canada, there certainly is no standard at all. Bicycles are mainly a nuisance here and city planners only grudgingly make any consideration for bicycles.
Again, chillly, seriously, your negative undertones are very much better kept to yourself. Cheer-up, enjoy life, get positive.
This is my personal diary section where I make note of my thoughts, ideas, suggestions, experiences, and so forth of my time spent with openstreetmap. Comments, suggestions, tips, ideas, and *positive* criticism is acceptable, and appreciated.
Коммент Richard 29 December 2009 23:27
It's your personal diary section, yes, but with comments open to all. If you write a comment to everyone like "come on people", expect the "people" to respond.
One of the great things about OSM is that it provides an opportunity for everyone to scratch their particular itch. Just because your itch differs doesn't mean that either of them is wrong.
The guys behind OpenCycleMap thought toucan crossings were important. You don't? That's cool. Some of us are actually working on making rendering easier so you can create your own custom rendering without toucan crossings. Bitching that existing renderings aren't exactly what you want - well, hey, that sounds like "negative undertones" to me.
Коммент Scocasso 30 December 2009 00:14
The End
Old hat.
New topic.