RE: osm.org/way/1388471237

Hello Officer,

I see that you are sharing the nodes of the bunkers on Hole #1. When you are excluding features (the four mid-fairway bunkers), sharing the nodes is perfectly valid. However, when you are including the feature (putting it inside the fairway, like the three bunkers around the green), there needs to either be a gap around the bunker, or the fairway should be drawn on the inside of the bunker.

RE: osm.org/way/1388562364

Hello Stormin,

Please don't define single areas by creating multiple areas that are joined together to form one larger area. If you are trying to represent a hole in the middle of something, the correct way to map it is to create the outer boundary, the inner boundary, and then combine them together into a "multipolygon". You can find some examples at osm.wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dgolf_course#Common_mapping_pitfalls and if you need help with understanding multipolygons and how to create them with your editor, check out osm.wiki/Relation:multipolygon. If those aren't clear and you need more help understanding, please reach out to us here and we'll do our best to help. Thanks.

And... thank you for engaging with us and asking question and trying to understand the issues. It's appreciated.

>our community is just as massive as yours

That's just patently untrue. I don't think you fully understand the scale of OpenStreetMap. But the size of our communities isn't the issue, so let's set that aside.

>no one has ever told me why lollipopping is bad

1. It's topologically incorrect. Maybe start by reading up on the mathematical concept of Topology. Start with https://a.co/d/0MCqej0.
2. It doesn't accurately describe what is on the ground. It is often some arbitrary stem that meanders from the fairway to the inner feature it is describing, but that path doesn't "map what's on the ground", a fundamental concept in OSM.
3. The gap that defines the stem of the lollipop is randomly wide and there are blades of grass in that area that are wrongly excluded from the definition of "fairway".
4. Just because it doesn't "break" OSM, doesn't mean it is wrong. I could define a road, but every single segment of the road is a new way so a curve would be made up of dozens of new ways. It wouldn't break OSM, but it isn't correct.
5. I could go on, but it seems like an argument meant to distract from the main point that rules and best practices exist and need to be followed.

Leniency breeds laziness. Things don't get fixed if they are allowed to lay fallow. Bad habits have been allowed to propagate for years now and it has created a MASSIVE amount of needed cleanup. We can't let these go any longer or we'll never get to a good state. When Alice is allowed to create bad data, Bob looks it and thinks, "oh, that's how you map that situation". And now we have twice as much to clean up than if we nipped it in the bud when Alice first made the error.

The terms of service don't specify how to map. You'll find that in the wiki pages.

Hi Golferboy,

We are aware that there are third-party applications out there that don't work correctly. You need to understand that OpenStreetMap is a *massive* community with thousands of different tools and those tools need to follow the rules set out by OSM, not the other way around. Just imagine if I used a tool that had a bug and could only handle 5 nodes to define a fairway, so I started drawing rectangles and told everyone else to deal with my bug and that I'll eventually get around to cleaning it up. You shouldn't be saving these workaround drawings at all.

For starters, you might want add your voice to the pull request (software fix) that was implemented 2 months ago but has yet to be incorporated and released. This will most likely fix your problem, but you need to get your tool's developer to give it some attention.

If you continue to create lollipops, the OSM data integrity group will probably start locking you out of your account until you can follow the same rules everyone else follows. None of us want that. We want to see great contributions continue to be added to the map. Everyone wins.

I fixed up the hole in osm.org/changeset/166549443. Multipolygons can't share a segment and JOSM complains about the validation error. The best way to represent that type of layout is several fairways the butt up to the green, but don't use the green in a multipolygon when there is no fringe.

The lines that define fairways, greens, bunkers, water hazards, and tees should never intersect or partially overlap each other and we noticed that they are overlapping in one or more of the feature pairs in this changeset. If there is no obvious fringe around the green, the fairway should butt up against the green and every node between them should be *shared*. If there is a fringe around the green that is similar to the fairway, the fairway should extend around the green and the two objects should be merged together into a multipolygon (See osm.wiki/Relation:multipolygon for how to create them with your map editor). Please read the wiki for instructions and examples of how to better map golf courses: osm.wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dgolf_course#Common_mapping_pitfalls. If you have any questions, please reply here and I'll gladly help clarify things. Thanks!

RE: osm.org/way/1388235928

Please don't use the "lollipop" style of mapping golf course elements as you've done in the URL above. You need to create proper multipolygon relations in order to map features like roughs/bunkers that are within other features like fairways. Please see osm.wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dgolf_course#Common_mapping_pitfalls and osm.wiki/Relation:multipolygon for help in understanding how to map this situation. If those aren't clear, please let me know and I'll help explain them further. Thanks.

RE: osm.org/way/1388134712

Please don't use the "lollipop" style of mapping golf course elements as you've done in the URL above. You need to create proper multipolygon relations in order to map features like roughs/bunkers that are within other features like fairways. Please see osm.wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dgolf_course#Common_mapping_pitfalls and osm.wiki/Relation:multipolygon for help in understanding how to map this situation. If those aren't clear, please let me know and I'll help explain them further. Thanks.

RE: osm.org/way/1365420593

Hello Avprex,

As I mentioned in a previous comment on your changeset (osm.org/changeset/163508500), fairways and greens shouldn't intersect/overlap like they do in the fairway mentioned above. Please refer to the wiki mentioned in those comments for how to map fairways and greens properly. Thanks.

Awesome. Glad to hear it. Thanks for getting back to me so quickly.

RE: osm.org/way/1387572440

Hello Jim,

Please don't share the nodes of the green if you have the fairway surrounding the green. If you can't see any fringe around the green, you should make the fairway butt up to the green and share the nodes on the boundary *between* the green and fairway instead. Please read the wiki for visual examples and instructions on how to better map golf courses: osm.wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dgolf_course#Common_mapping_pitfalls. If you have any questions, please let me know and I'll gladly help clarify things. Thanks!

Hello tizzzod,

Your fairway and green are overlapping in this changeset. They weren't before, but you made them overlap now. See the wiki for how to properly map fairways and greens. Either surround the green with a multipolygon around the fringe, or butt them up together. Here's the wiki: osm.wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dgolf_course#Common_mapping_pitfalls

I'm not fan of temporary data, but I trust you more than other golf course mappers to do the right thing. Thanks. You're making some really nice looking courses I've noticed.

Go ahead and continue. The chances that our work would collide are 1 in 1,000 on any given night.

I work on courses across the country cleaning up mapping errors and looking for people making mistakes so I can correct their techniques (and prevent me from having to clean up future errors).

Yeah, I'm trying to clean up all of the bad examples of this style on the map so that new mappers don't get the idea that this is correct mapping. Check out the wiki and you'll see the right way to map around a fairway and green. Thanks!

Unfortunately there are a few bad tutorial videos out there and they refuse to update them with correct mapping techniques. So here we are scrambling to correct new mappers as soon as they show up on the scene.

Thanks for getting back to me. I'm happy to help correct bad habits. It will make my life easier in the future.

You are right that the previous way the fairway/green was mapped was also incorrect. At some point, I will work on correcting all existing ones like that (in the US). In the meantime, I'm pointing them out to new mappers.

You can absolutely go back and edit your fairway. Just pick two nodes on the fairway that are near the green. I think you have to shift-click to select two. Then you can right click and split the way into two ways and delete the one entering into the green. At that point, you should be able to continue drawing and snap to the boundary nodes. If that doesn't work, undo all the way and try deleting single fairway nodes that are inside the green and then just drag nodes until they snap to boundary nodes. (I really should make a video of how to do this. It would be easier to explain with video.)

third option: leave it as is and I'll get around to fixing it myself this year. I have 13,000 other fairways to fix and the goal is to finish them by the end of the year.

RE: osm.org/way/1385667365

Hello Desync,

Please don't share the nodes of the green if you have the fairway surrounding the green. If you can't see any fringe around the green, you should make the fairway butt up to the green and share the nodes on the boundary *between* the green and fairway instead. Please read the wiki for visual examples and instructions on how to better map golf courses: osm.wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dgolf_course#Common_mapping_pitfalls. If you have any questions, please let me know and I'll gladly help clarify things. Thanks!

RE: osm.org/relation/19013022

Thanks for helping map golf courses. There are some problems with your edits however and your mapping process needs to be fixed going forward so you don't continue to step on the efforts of others. For starters, you should read the following wiki: osm.wiki/Keep_the_history on how important it is to *not* delete map elements when you should be modifying them instead. You break multipolygon relations when you delete something like a fairway that belongs to a relation only to redraw it and not properly add it back to the existing relation. You should also read the golf_course wiki (osm.wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dgolf_course#Common_mapping_pitfalls) and the general wiki on how to properly work with multipolygons (osm.wiki/Relation:multipolygon#iD). Thanks.