Wouldn’t the wiki be a better place? There are some pages comparing hardware used for OSM things already.

Thanks for your contributions!

Just a bit of food for thought: when I started I thought POIs were more important than, for example, buildings. My reasoning was that, in general, people are more likely to be looking for a POI than for a building. But my opinion has changed meanwhile, because buildings, especially if they have address tags, are very useful as reference points for mappers, if you’re not certain of the location of a POI, for example.

So if one day you feel tired of adding POIs try adding some buildings instead, they might help you in the future :)

Totally agree that calling tab-delimited CSV “CSV” is silly!

About the human-readable part: that could be a reason, but I don’t think that’s it… There’s so much that can be said about “human-readable-ness” I don’t even know where to begin, apart from the fact that “human-readable” is ambiguous.

In the sense of being (or not) “text”: both less and vim display these characters, so they’re definitely readable. Example file of two records, one of values a1, a2, a3, and another of values b1, b2, b3:

$ xxd test.dsv
00000000: 6131 1f61 321f 6133 1e62 311f 6232 1f1e  a1.a2.a3.b1.b2..
00000010: 1c0a

In the sense of being easy(-ish) to read: I wouldn’t call CSV files that look like this readable:

foo,"bar,baz,zaz",,,,,asdf

How many columns does this record have? How many (non-)empty columns does this record have? What’s the value of the 5th column? You can’t answer any of these questions at a glance, so this CSV file isn’t significantly more readable than the file above.

So if your only reason to use CSV (w/ quoting+escaping) is that it’s human-readable, just don’t. They’re not anyway, they’re meant to be consumed/processed by a program, and for that there are better alternatives.

Finally, we use non-human-readable files all the time (images, audio, video, zips, etc, etc)! I’ve never seen anyone complain their images/audio/etc aren’t human-readable.

@jleedev

No tabular data is “simple”.

That should be obviously false to anyone…

Can you say for sure that nobody has included (…) anywhere in the Host: header of a tile request, ever?

There are two sides to that coin:

1. Of course you can’t!
2. Of course you can!

RE (1): obviously you can’t because it’s user input.

RE (2): like @mmd said, “I’m missing the bigger picture here.” I don’t know what the purpose of these files is, I don’t know who these files are for, I don’t know if they’ll be automatically updated regularly, I don’t know if the files will be published raw (untreated) or not, etc, etc – because these details aren’t explicitly stated anywhere.

For example, if after the raw data is gathered you check that there’s no occurrence of a {tab,space,US,comma,…}, then you can safely use {tab,space,US,comma,…} as the separator of the published file – but this assumes that the data isn’t automatically updated regularly.

Python’s csv.writer with unix_dialect and QUOTE_NONNUMERIC

That’s an implementation detail a user shouldn’t have to think about, and, personally, I have no idea what the unix_dialect is… Additionally, it’s not guaranteed to be compatible across different programming languages/DSV libraries/programs, even though these quoting+escaping rules may look standard. Before I can use the file, I (as the user) have to make sure whatever program I want to use correctly supports all these implementation details.

OTOH, @Jochen Topf suggested using a SQLite file, which looks to me like a much better alternative even if it sounds overkill at first sight. Among many other pros over some DSV format:

• there’s only one SQLite implementation;
• it’s stable as a rock;
• pretty much every language has bindings to it;
• there’s the sqlite CLI program;
• you get the power of the SQL language;
• if you don’t like SQL you can still export to whatever DSV dialect (and therefore use *nix tools);
• there are no choices to make;
• it’s guaranteed to work for everyone everywhere always!

Hopefully that makes clear what I was trying to express: if you can’t guarantee interoperability through simplicity (i.e. without hacks), then at least guarantee interoperability through actual standards.

PS: using tabs instead of comma+quoting+escaping is the opposite of weird, and in general (for what people normally use CSV) it’s a step in the right direction. Python’s CSV module, for example, (since it’s been mentioned) supports “arbitrary” separators as an instance parameter, IIRC.

I fail to understand how this question of which separator to use in a DSV file for simple tabular data still comes up, since it’s been solved for decades, without using subpar “solutions” (e.g. quoting & escaping) that unnecessarily preclude handling the files with simple tools (e.g. *nix shell and related tools (cut, sed, sort, read, etc); a simple string split in a programming language; etc)…

Hi,

What do you mean by “changing my location”? Where do you see that change?

And what did you do to report whoever did that?

I use “you” in the text but I’m not referring to you or any specific person, it’s only to make reading and writing easier (and try to force the reader into thinking from some perspective).

I had never thought about this before. In my opinion it all depends on the person’s circumstances and personal preference/ideology, and the “ground truth”.

Hypothetical scenario 1: your house is in the middle of nowhere, in a very nice secluded place, and you just want some peace and quiet. But because of the data on OSM (specifically, your house and access to it) some hikers show up at your door. This could be for a variety of different reasons, intentional or not, but unless the encouter is positive (maybe they need some help; maybe they’re nice people and you all end up making BBQ together), then it is negative for you. With the data on OSM the encouters are arguably more likely to happen. All that’s left to discuss is if your glass is half empty or half full.

Hypothetical scenario 2: your house is in a city, or even a village will do. There are several houses close to yours, and they’re all mapped. Whether or not your own house is mapped makes no significant difference to whether randos show up at your door – random strangers passing by your door is likely to be the reality already.

My house happened to be mapped already when I started mapping and removing it never even crossed my mind. But my case is closer to (2) above. Should it be more like (1) I would very likely think about it.

Do you have the right to complain or request that your property or its details be removed? Yeah, I think so, why not?

Do you have the right/should you remove your property or some of its details from OSM? Maybe, but probably not. Contacting the “OSM authorities” (DWG?) and explaing your situation is probably a better approach.

Should the “OSM authorities” remove your property or some of its details if you ask them to? I think it all hinges on the “ground truth”. If what you want to remove is publicly verifiable, that is, by anyone with no special access, then I’d say no. In this case removing it from OSM won’t bring you much benefit either, as the data is available elsewhere or can be aggregated elsewhere. And if you do remove it from OSM, it should be considered vandalism. OTOH if the data is sensitive, private, or special access is required to verify it, then I’d say yes – and the relevant history too if possible!

Should your property (or some of its details) be removed if it was added to OSM before it became your property? I don’t know about this one… I’m leaning to no, but I don’t have a strong opinion.

Some examples (IMO):

• An uncovered open-air pool is not private if it can be seen from the street or aerial imgery.
• An indoor pool is private if it cannot be seen from the street.
• The “blueprint” of a house (levels, rooms, stairs, &c) is most likely private.
• Your house in the middle of nowhere is not private if it can be seen from aerial imagery or if one can stumble upon it passing by.

Was it unethical for this user to access someone else’s computer (OpenStreetMap servers) after they had been banned from doing so for the sake of protecting their privacy in an extralegal manner?

I’d reformulate this question a bit first to make it more general, starting by replacing “was” with “is”, and “this user” with “a user”.

I don’t care much about the “extralegal” part – I don’t even know what it means, really. IMO, if someone’s privacy is at risk then they have the right to protect it, even if it means breaking some site’s rules (OSM in this case), as long as in the process they don’t cause any harm. If their privacy is not at ristk, the removal can be considered vandalism, as was this case.

And there’s the technical part that I’m ignoring: anyone could download the history to retrieve their house even after it being removed, because OSM does keep a history. So simply removing the features doesn’t solve their problem. But maybe they weren’t aware of that?

What could I have done better?

Adding the house to WikiData was a dick move, especially since it was out of spite, as you say. You didn’t know their reasons and how it affected them. It very likely made them angrier and more frustrated with OSM, growing ill will between both parties. Now they can go around telling people we’re just some jerks playing cartographers and invading people’s privacy, and with some reason to it.

And I didn’t understand what you meant with “but it is a good act, or at least a neutral one”.

Is it acceptable for the Data Working Group to move straight to a long block just because other users attempted to explain the site’s policies to them first?

“It’s no use trying to speak to someone who doesn’t wish to listen”, or something like that…

It seems several people tried to reason with them, several times, to no avail. Better to cut the losses short and just end the matter.

What do we say to other users with a similar concern? Is being upfront about the legal problems threatening, or merely truthful and effective?

What are these “legal problems”?

I say that we should try to go case-by-case as much as possible. It’s all good to try and come up with some clear-cut rules that say “this is fine, that is not”, but rules don’t always work (and there are priorities, e.g. to me, privacy > rules).

And it must be made very clear that we value people’s privacy and take it very seriously, within reason – if they don’t care to hear us, we needn’t care to hear them.

Welcome and thank you for your contribution!

I would also add that making smaller changesets is good practice. It makes it easier for people to review them, it prevents you from possibly losing some work, and makes it easier to revert changes if needed.

If you have Linux installed on your Chromebook you just have to install Java and download JOSM, ant it should Just Work. Otherwise I don’t know, but I second @GOwin’s suggestion.

Hi there o/

What do you mean by “shift”, and why do you keep saying “shift”?

Very nice, thanks for sharing! The trick to underlay a picture of the map of the mall is smart. How do you do that? I know how to use aerial imagery but didn’t know you could use just any image.

Also, looking at the screenshots, it seemed like the “Pizza Pai” parking was missing a trema in “Pai”?

@qeef

This is starting to turn into a dialogue (as in actual 2), but whatever! :)

I can imagine a situation when an owner wants his company in OSM but doesn’t want to become an OSM contributor. In other words, an owner wants to improve OSM but only by adding his own business, without the hassle of learning how to do that. I believe this diary is about such an use-case.

Yes, I believe that’s the case too! But I don’t see why one thing leads to the other. I can imagine two ways a website/w.e. may allow users to add POIs without having to first create an account:

1. Create anonymous notes (like onosm does);
2. Have a website-specific user of its own (e.g. onosm_user, osmybiz_user, …).

Re the second part: ah now I think I understand what you mean! It would be something outside of OSM, not directly on OSM.

@qeef

The point is to strictly differ between an owner and an OSM contributor.

Why? If anyone can edit all of the map, without any restrictions, why make that distinction?

I should point out all the solutions are WWW based, too.

Oh I didn’t realize that was the point. But I still fail to see the connection between being a website and SEOs coming to waste mappers’ time. Wouldn’t the same happen if they were made to send the details by SMS or email?

@qeef:

All the solutions here needs OSM account

Not really I think. The editor can have an account of its own for anonymous users.

Why it wouldn’t be possible to submit their business by email? Or SMS? Ideally localised? Then, the received messages would became issues, and the list of issues possible source for POI import.

What’s the difference from https://www.onosm.org ? You can filter notes created by onosm.org on e.g. https://ent8r.github.io/NotesReview (go to Filter and enter for example “onosm.org” in the Query field). I believe you can even create RSS or Atom feeds for a specific filter.

The onosm.org notes are also easy to parse. The values are human input though…

@PlayzinhoAgro The URL to the site @SimonPoole mentioned is https://osmybiz.osm.ch I believe. And I agree that it would be better if it (1) was a web page instead, and (2) created the nodes rather than notes.

@Zverik I don’t see why it has to be comprehensive in the details. You say that “the business classification in OSM is both incomplete and too complex”, so being incomplete here shouldn’t be a problem either.

The addresing can be made “local”. The “form” doesn’t really have to be a form. The users could be guided through steps in a way that “localizes” the shown input fields, for example starting with the country. That could apply not only to addressing but to contacts, social networks, &c. These localizations could be provided/audited by the local OSM communities. I’m sure most would be happy to.

Re it not working: when you fail at something do you just give up? Not saying one should be constantly bashing the head on the wall, but there are a multitude of possible reasons for the other projects to “have failed”.

@TomH maintaining a FAQ that clearly states, among other things, that “no, we are not selling you ad space here, stop asking, thank you very much”, should be fine no? If they still come nagging, just dryly link to the FAQ. What is the volume of such people?

There’s a commerce association where I live that’s regularly in contact with shops, restaurants, &c, and organizes some campains across all such businesses (thematic days or weeks for example). For some time now I’ve been thinking about contacting them to see if something could be worked out, having the business owners add their businesses to OSM, but I’m missing the workflow. As @SimonPoole said, creating notes is a no go. But now that I’ve learned of osmybiz I’ll give it a try and see if it would be good enough.

Re @redsteakraw

The problem is what is worse removing a small amount of good data or having a lot of unreliable data.

I’d say easily (as I said on my previous comment) that removing good data just because it may be bad is much worse than having bad data.

The thing is if you have unreliable data it taints the good data, as the system as a whole can’t be relied on.

Yeah, I understand that, but removing good data doesn’t take you anywhere closer to your (our) goals – in the end, you’re throwing away what you’re looking for.

(…) which is why it would have to be paired with some sort of Check in or It’s still here API. So that popular old restaurant could easily be checked and passed over for any deletion. Mobile apps and simple editors could expose this and make the whole thing transparent.

That makes much more sense. StreetComplete already does that for opening hours. Maybe they’re open to adding another quest type for outdated POIs and other data.

Re 1st: that’s a cool idea. What I currently do is I keep a list of things I commonly add to the map, things that usually have mostly the same tags (e.g. recycling containers, trash containers, business chains, &c). I just copy&paste, make any required changes, et voila. Works well enough for me.

Re 2nd: I don’t think that’s a good direction to go… I’ll assume you’re talking only of business-POIs (retaurants, shops, cafes, &c). First, adding POIs requires much more effort than removing them. Then, some businesses really don’t change details often, if ever, and they keep on going. I have examples of POIs that have been added 9~10 years ago that are still open today (and I know they’re even older than that) - for examples of this just look at big chains, though they’re not the only ones. Plus, if you’d delete POI after some time what you’d get is worse coverage. It requires even more hands and time, and that’s not something you can just go to some shop down the street get more of. Something more useful is to be warned of outdated POIs (and @SimonPoole already mentioned that).

Re 3rd: I also really like this one! It would open up a lot of possibilitied, like “real-time” parking info, and opening hours (sometimes businesses make exceptions on their open schedule). OsmAnd has an “avoid road” feature, but it’s offline.

This looks so good! Awesome job, thanks for sharing!

I don’t know if it’s suitable to your needs but you can use GitHub Pages for static sites or blog-like sites (with Jekyll or something), based on a Git repo. I host my own personal site there and, although I don’t use a domain name of my own, I’ve seen it mentioned in the docs. For static sites you should disable Jekyll or whatever. This took me a long time to figure out, I think because it’s kind of hidden in the docs, but feel free to message me if need/want to do it.