OpenStreetMap
Dear,
I have started to scroll through the websites of the big Belgian banks to locate the ATMs in Belgium.
My procedure is checking off, bank by bank, province per province.
I started with ING in West-Vlaanderen. If you pass through Alveringem, you’ll see my first change.
This is a big task, so if you want to dig in … go for it :) I started a task on Producteev to coordinate the effort. Sent me a private mail to be added as contributor.
Kind Regards,
Brecht (peeweeke)
Discussion
Comment from aseerel4c26 on 24 February 2015 at 17:25
Uumm, but you are aware that you should not (must not - copyright!) copy the ATM database from any bank website? I assume you do not visit the ATMs yourself, do you?
Comment from aseerel4c26 on 24 February 2015 at 18:14
At least it should be discussed before you do that much work – which may need to be deleted later (more work). Was it somewhere? Or are you sure that your action is okay (legal)?
Viele Grüße aus Deutschland! :-)
Comment from escada on 24 February 2015 at 20:31
I had the same reaction as aseerel4c26 . This looks like an import and some rules have to be followed in such case. Please join the Belgian mailing list to discuss.
regards
Comment from peeweeke on 25 February 2015 at 09:34
I didn’t know this was causing legal problems.
Let me explain my way of doing this. As the website maintained by the bank itself is the most correct, I get a list of the branches. I do NOT simply import the data found there. I input that address in AGIV and draw the house and add the bank-tag. Addionally I add the address-information. To aid me I often have to put the housenumber information of the whole street.
I know that information on a banker’s website is under copyright law, but does it really stretch to the addresses of their offices? You would guess they want you to copy this. :)
I have been a member of the mailinglists, and now a few days ago I have added me to the mailinglist again, but no result yet. (I found the confirmationmail in my spam …)
Kind Regards,
Brecht
PS: Do we really have to be so blunt in our communication? Everybody makes mistakes no?
Comment from Sanderd17 on 25 February 2015 at 12:19
Sometimes, banks don’t want that you copy it. They’re sometimes afraid that you’ll copy the data, and then, after a few years, it’s outdated but people still use it.
When someone searches a bank using outdated data, he can become frustrated when the bank isn’t there anymore. So some banks want to be protected against that, and try to limit copying.
So that’s why banks might be reluctant. However, surveyed data can have the same problems, and banks can’t stop us from surveying. So their sort of protection isn’t too clear.
Note that this also counts for other shops, it’s the sort of answer I got a few times when asking to use a shop DB. I had to make sure I kept updating it in OSM (and sign a contract for it). But of course, I couldn’t guarantee that.
About it being an import or not, I think, as long as you check every thing you add via aerial imagery, it’s more armchair mapping than an import. So I’m certainly not against this practice.
Comment from aseerel4c26 on 25 February 2015 at 12:22
Hi Brecht, thank you for your response!
It may be that it does not cause legal problems, but to save work (also your work) and to avoid damage to the project (copyright law infringement) I think it should be discussed with the community. This is similar to an import. What you import is the list of branches of a specific bank / ATM and their addresses.
The diary comments are not really suited for this discussion. I think forum or mailinglist would be best. Mention this diary discussion in the new place.
Databases may seem simple (as opposed to graphics, for example), but they could be protected - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sui_generis_database_right#European_Union . I do not know if the list of their branches and address is protected by the law. Just to give you an example: it would not be allowed to use the “yellow pages”.
Yes, the banks likely have an interest of getting their branches into OSM, however, then you could ask them for an official permission (if we think that their branch-address database is protected). Remeber that the bank branch data, as long as it is in OSM, also could be used by the competitors of a bank. Now, the bank may object to the inclusion of their branch database into OSM.
By the way: “Most correct” is if a mapper stays in front of the bank/ATM - not a bank’s list. :-)
If you discuss this issue elsewhere, please mention the new location here (in case someone finds this by a web search).
Regarding “blunt”: I/we do not accuse you or want to punish you or whatever - there is just an improvement which should be made. And this is what I wrote. Yes, I understand that it is not nice to enthusiastically start a project (of would you think is a great idea) and then somebody else tells you that this may not be a good idea.
Thank you!
Comment from aseerel4c26 on 25 February 2015 at 12:25
@Sanderd17: “more armchair mapping than an import” – With aerial imagery: do you see that there is a bank branch, do you see that there is a ATM, do you see that it has this address? ;-) Not really. I am not saying that it is an import (because of the manual work and the address lookup elsewhere - I do not know AGIV), but it has similarities/is close to an import.