This is why Google/Apple maps will always be ahead; any company that relies on OSM for navigation will never catch up
Posted by slice0 on 26 January 2024 in English.When a mapping service chooses to pay for the rights for the street data and navigation they turn to the government, the state government hand over the map of their roads and classifications of the roads. The government of South Australia has given this information to the OpenStreetMap project for free all that needed to be done is for someone to translate the data onto the map. I was that person, and it has done nothing except for russle peoples jimmys all the way to the OSM board. The classification of roads goes way beyond a single dictionary meaning and has lots of different considerations such as traffic volume, width of the road, whether there are hazards such as railway crossings that the roads are engineered to avoid, speed, intersections etc. Thankfully the people who plan and engineer the roads take all of this into consideration and classify roads accordingly to what the intention of the road actually is. As far as OSM is concerned none of this matters and “what someone thinks it is from the ground” is far far more important and accurate. I 100% get that when this project started not a single government anywhere in the world gave this information over to the project and OSM needed to come up with some meaning and right and wrong way to classify roads. So the project decided on “Use highway=secondary to tag highways which are not part of major routes, but nevertheless form a link in the national route network. Secondary highways are generally specified by country road classification bylaws”. Which is fine and people were happy with that… but it leaves out a situation where. what if a government somewhere comes along and says “heres what our roads are feel free to use this” well what you see in the above screenshot happens, OSM does not allow for Real factual official government data to be allowed and I think this needs to change.
Discussion
په 26 January 2024 په 03:10 باندې د slice0 تبصره
I have linked this from the Australia Community forum as well https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/using-official-data-that-we-have-permission-to-use-will-get-you-banned/108491
په 26 January 2024 په 03:45 باندې د slice0 تبصره
I posted it on reddit aswell https://www.reddit.com/r/openstreetmap/comments/1ab8z77/diary_entry_osm_is_banning_people_for_using_data/
په 26 January 2024 په 04:17 باندې د jimkats تبصره
What’s the exact license of those governmental data?
په 26 January 2024 په 04:27 باندې د slice0 تبصره
@jimkats The data source is Data SA, osm.wiki/Australian_Data_Sources#South_Australia, https://data.sa.gov.au/data/dataset/roads, There is no question at all about permissions or license or anything legal. The OSM project literally has full permission to use it. In fact there was even a plan to import the road and classification data way in in 2015 osm.wiki/Import/South_Australian_Roads , however the bot written to do it wasnt good enough and it ended up going nowhere, and now doing it automatically would be next to impossible because of relations and service roads etc. Its only possible to do it by hand which it did in the ID editor as well.
په 26 January 2024 په 04:41 باندې د Kovoschiz تبصره
@jimkats That’s irrelevant. The situation is summarized clearly in DWG’s email.
په 26 January 2024 په 04:57 باندې د arctic-rocinante تبصره
Here’s the thing: there’s more than one government in the world, and they don’t all use consistent highway classification systems.
OpenStreetMap is a global project. While there are some regional tagging differences, the general aim is to keep things as consistent as possible around the world. This makes it much easier to actually use the data.
If everyone copied their local government data directly into OSM, wouldn’t we end up with an inconsistent mess that’s harder for developers to use?
په 26 January 2024 په 05:09 باندې د slice0 تبصره
@artic-rocinate , well thats the whole issue I believe, also some countrys drive on the left and others on the right. The whole world is not uniform thats just how it is. If you come here would you like to navigate the roads as they are designed to be navigated? id like to go to Belarus and navigate their roads as intended. The world is big and different thats how it is, Google and Apple use different meanings depending on region/state/country
په 26 January 2024 په 07:32 باندې د SimonPoole تبصره
Your ban seems to have little to nothing to do with the source material but far more with your behaviour towards your fellow mappers.
And as has been pointed out, just because we are allowed to use a specific source, doesn’t imply that it is suitable or even desirable to include in OSM.
په 26 January 2024 په 07:45 باندې د slice0 تبصره
@simonpoole keeping everything in uniform when in the real world thats not how it works falls under “for the renderer mapping” in my opinion. The project has rules against it, using legal and allowed sources should be welcomed with open arms.
په 26 January 2024 په 09:55 باندې د Richard تبصره
Sheesh, learn how OSM works before mouthing off.
There are tags you can use for recording the official classification of a road.
designation=
is one of them.highway=
is not.The sheer effrontery of steamrollering in and changing an entire state’s highway tagging, because you somehow know better than every single mapper who has gone before in the 19 years of OSM, is really quite something.
په 26 January 2024 په 10:11 باندې د slice0 تبصره
@richard the you should remember when all the data got reset because of the license change, from what I saw everything was just rushed in and tagged according to any number of random factors and left like that. I assure you that 100 times more thought went into the current classifications than it was before. new highways have even been built that have made previous primary roads redundant and down-graded to secondary. The official data source gets updated accordingly to match the current roads.
په 26 January 2024 په 17:54 باندې د Friendly_Ghost تبصره
TL;DR. Try to split up the wall of text into paragraphs.
په 26 January 2024 په 18:14 باندې د Baloo Uriza تبصره
Australia’s idea and America’s idea of classification both differ from OSM’s idea, which is trying to have the same classification system globally. Trying to force Australian rules over actually bothering to conflate data into OSM rules is clownshoes thinking.
په 26 January 2024 په 19:45 باندې د jimkats تبصره
@Kovoschiz it may or may not be relevant, but the email doesn’t really answer it :)
په 27 January 2024 په 09:44 باندې د tastrax تبصره
Sure - google is always right….
https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/the-rise-of-your-gps-is-wrong-signs-around-australia https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-08-16/google-maps-leaves-student-nurse-stranded-in-desert/102729818
Plenty of cases where “official data” can be “wrong” for some issue. Most of us working with data on a regular basis will see errors, omissions, changes that needs correction. Getting that back to the supplier can be easy or hard.
OSM has its own set of rules re roads and your poor application of those rules has been pointed out to you many times. Its not a like for like situation as you have been told multiple times. Just learn the OSM rules.
Here is a Google challenge for you - get rid of all these ‘lakes’ in Tasmania that dont exist. The data comes from an official source and they have been on the map for years! https://www.google.com/maps/@-42.56185,146.3420661,15z?entry=ttu
په 27 January 2024 په 16:03 باندې د Mateusz Konieczny تبصره
This does not mean we are obligated to follow official classification.
Especially where official classification is clearly not matching current road importance or its role.
And for your information: Google does the same.
See say https://www.google.pl/maps/place/Droga+wojew%C3%B3dzka+nr+219/@53.8396301,18.788883,20z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x4702a349a195d2af:0x8ffd8c570ebf5f14!8m2!3d53.8396253!4d18.7893886!16s%2Fg%2F11vc8k5xk4?hl=en&entry=ttu case.
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droga_wojew%C3%B3dzka_nr_219
osm.org/way/264203873 and osm.org/way/1199402239#map=17/53.83911/18.79006 have the same official classification (Droga Wojewódzka).
په 27 January 2024 په 16:04 باندې د Mateusz Konieczny تبصره
(example above is from Poland - but I expect that Australia also has cases where official road classification is not matching osm tags 1:1)
په 27 January 2024 په 16:45 باندې د SomeoneElse تبصره
To be honest, I suspect that the question “should we map official data into OSM 1:1” is a bit of a red herring.
The bigger issue is that the writer of this diary entry is simply unable to discuss with other people about things; it’s as if they can’t imagine a world in which other people have evidence and experience that they don’t have.
I suspect that if there was no disagreement on road category tagging we’d have similar dramatics about something else.
** Andy (writing in a personal capacity)
په 29 January 2024 په 21:39 باندې د slice0 تبصره
osm.org/user/slice0/diary/403382
په 3 March 2024 په 09:23 باندې د slice0 تبصره
@Richard based on you reply I have made a proposal here https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/mass-edit-proposal-south-australias-arterial-traffic-network/110006 , it looks like you are 100% wrong with the designation tag