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ارسالی از zenfunk در 27 ژانویه 2010 به English.

Hi, I'm contributing to OSM for almost two years now. After doing my hometown, I switched to neighbouring villages, after this I mapped during my holidays in various parts of the world and so on... you know how it is.

Then I started to sail and wondered about a free map to load on my chartplotter- hey- openseamap.org and freietonne.de are there to the rescue. After reading a bit in the wiki I realized that things on the water are a bit more complicated than "amenity=restaurant; name=Hofbrauhaus".
As true as it may be- the result is disatrous. To properly tag a buoy you have to tag something monstrous like this:

*OpenSeaMap-Tags*
seamark:topmark:shape=sphere
seamark:topmark:colour=red
seamark:radar_reflector=yes
seamark:name=Rostock
seamark:lon=012
seamark:light:signal:period=4
seamark:light:ref=LF-Nr 3448
seamark:light:colour=white
seamark:light:character=Iso
seamark:lat=54
seamark:category=major
seamark:buoy_safewater:shape=pillar
seamark:buoy_safewater:colour:pattern=vertical_stripes
seamark:buoy_safewater:colour=white; red
seamark:buoy_safe_water:shape=pillar
note=Ansteuertonne Warnemünde

Or, since we got two tagging schemes which seem to coexist in parallel worlds:

OSM-Scheme-Tags (from WIKI)*
seamark=buoy
buoy=safe_water
topmark=yes
topmark:shape=sphere
topmark:colour=red
radar_reflector=yes
name=Rostock
light=yes
light:signal_period=4
light:ref=LF-Nr 3448
light:colour=white
light:character=Iso
buoy:category=major
buoy:shape=pillar
buoy:colour_pattern=vertical_stripes
buoy:colour=white; red
buoy:shape=pillar
note=Ansteuertonne Warnemünde

This is impossible for a normal mapper to do. I'm well aware of the fact that the seamarks are wickedly complicated and that there are well known international standards for almost every possible seasigns. On the other hand does the current situation do absolutely no good at all:

To date I still haven't found out how to tag a simple navigational light that sits happyly on a small Island IN A WAY THAT GETS IT RENDERED IN OSeaM- is this really so hard to do?. I passed a couple of those during my sailing trips and would happily add them to OSeaM- but I simply can't. The founders of the project seem to develop a wickedly complicated data model which fits the international standards nicely, but on the otherhand is so complicated that I can't tag them propperly and need a specially designed editor (which I might add- doesn't exist!).
Come on, something like:
seamark=beacon
light=yes
color=white
...would be completely sufficient to describe the data I actually have. Since I passed most of them during the day I can't even comment on number of flashes etc. This could be added later (e. g. by adding tags like: lightperiod=5sek; lightsequence= flash, flashnumber=3 or etc.). Unless someone climbs up the masts, noone can tell you about the height, and until someone spends half a day on each navigational light, you would never know about light sectors and such.
Something like the simple datamodel above would be actually useable NOW. There was always the mantra of not mapping for the renderer- and the time told that this mantra was right- the renderers got better and better while the data model in OSM got more consistent over the time in a completely evolutionary way.

The Openseamap datamodel is completely top- down, nothing evolutionary- actually they tell you not to tag stuff right now, since the datamodel is not "there" yet. The bad thing seems to be that the OSeaM guys don't talk to mappers- what do we want, what data can we provide (There are quite some complaints in the mailing lists that they don't participate in the discussions.) So I feel kinda stuck now. Also we don't tag for the renderer, I do not even can tag after a certain datamodel consensus that as usually somehow evolved in the wikis, because there is none.
What is a sophisticated data model for if noone can actually use it- either because noone can collect the data, or because noone can use it because it is way too complicated.

Why not use a simple datamodel that people can actually use for now and build on that- this is how OSM works and how it became great.

So far I had to use the freietonne.de interface to enter my data since they have an editor that works, and they render my data. Since the freietonne data also gets entered in the OSM database, not all is lost for OSM.

There was much arguing going on between the two projects (OSeaM and freietonne) during the summer and I don't wanna take sides, mostly because I haven't read through all the mailing list archives- who knows who was right or wrong. I don't want to flame annybody, I really think all have the best intentions, but to date the openseamap doesn't render lights in Croatia. Looking at the map of freietonne, I see that it somehow works. Why doesn't OSeaM render the freietonne datamodel too- as many other examples in the OSM history have shown, both datamodels can coexist without interference, and both datamodels can be rendered just hte same.

My 5 cents,
Christian

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Discussion

نظر از burto در 27 ژانویه 2010 ساعت 21:07

Hello zenfunk,

I can't help you with the data input (although if you are not unhappy with typing, I would recommend that you use JOSM to input your tags) but I just wanted to say that there is now support for seamark tags in the mkgmap program so some marine objects (lights and buoys) can be shown on Garmin GPS units (not sure about the plotters, they are particularly weird, but other units, eTrex, Nuvi, etc. are OK). I put together a demo map of the Baltic for the OpenSeaMap dudes and it looks good where there is actually marine stuff defined. Please contact me if you want more info on using mkgmap to create marine maps for the Garmin.

Mark

نظر از zenfunk در 27 ژانویه 2010 ساعت 23:12

Thanks for the response.
Well, to be honest, ATM, I completely lost track of what to tag at all. There are lots of wikisites on seamarks that are so incomplete that it renders them useless (pun not intended- LOL), there are at least two tagging scheme propsals on buoys and whatnot. How should I know what gets rendered and what not- most of the wiki sites are way older than half a year. Right now the detour via freietonne seems to be the only way to enter the data in a more or less consistent way. If and when it will get rendered on OSeaM- I don't know.

I'm really sorry for my public outbreak- I must sound like bashing the OSeaM maintainers all the time - something I really don't want. In the essence they are volunteers like me. Their knowledge on the topic is way beyond mine and I have the deepest respect for all their immense effort to get this project under way.

I just don't get the utter lack of information on their side. Why not render the freietonne signs- since it is the only consistent way of adding seamarks to the database ATM.

To say something good about OSeaM at last- a couple of days ago I realized that you can download .kap files (Rastermaps) for your chartplotter. This really blew me away. I can use OSM with my beloved opencpn chartplotting software - fantastic. This really is a step in the right direction, because now you can actualy use OSeaM while being on the water- things like that will push the project immensely. The more useful the project will get for the user, the more users will join and the more data will get collected, verified and corrected.

The POI overlay of freietonne was a bit clunky in my book, but it was the only thing that worked since about half a year ago! (I run Linux- so their seachart on a stick thingy was not working for me). An integration of seasigns into the map is much more elegant, so thanks for making the Garmin map. Unfortunately, mkgmap never really worked for me on my last remaining windows machine. When the time comes I will try again with a newer version. So thanks again for your offer to help. Right now I have to tackle the tagging issue ;-).

The more uses and formats the database gets- the better.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts,

Christian

نظر از Skippern در 28 ژانویه 2010 ساعت 11:03

The problem with marine tagging is that two sites (freitonne and OSeaM) uses different tagging schematics. There are a proposal though to unify the tagging schemes for marine tags. I think the OSeaM crew have a special editor at hand for editing marine features, though I am not sure of the status of this editor. There are also a set of precompiled presets you can activate in JOSM that allows for some marine mapping.

نظر از zenfunk در 29 ژانویه 2010 ساعت 09:20

Skippern wrote:
"The problem with marine tagging is that two sites (freitonne and OSeaM) uses different tagging schematics. There are a proposal though to unify the tagging schemes for marine tags."
IMHO, you are completely right, but I don't understand why OSeaM (which, apart from doing the website and working on the (much needed) editor, is basically a renderer), doesn't render both tagging schemes. Since we don't tag for the renderer, the renderer has to adopt to the tags that are actually used. This is how it allways was in OSM, and I think it is good practice. Additionally, tags like leisure=marina evolved completely independently from both projects and is used in europe over 2.300 times- why isn't that rendered? OSeaM introduced a new tag for Marinas which consists of harbour=yes+ harbour:category=marina. Well, it somehow fits their namespace, but it also ignores the work of a couple hundreds of contributors. BTW, the OSeaM tags are longer, more complicated and give no further information whatsoever than the earlier leisure=marina tag.

"I think the OSeaM crew have a special editor at hand for editing marine features, though I am not sure of the status of this editor. There are also a set of precompiled presets you can activate in JOSM that allows for some marine mapping." All true, and I perfectly understand that it takes time to write an editor, which is not finished to date. Meanwhile, one could use the freietonne "editor" to enter seamarks in the OSM database, and OSeaM can render them just fine. Two tagging schemes can happily coexist if all of the renderers show both of the schemes on the map- which is the ultimate goal of OSeaM.

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