DaCor, probably yes, but probably not :)

Like was above, there will be counter-examples in many countries (Portugal, France)

Зеленоград has no streets

One example would be Зеленоград

osm.org/relation/1988678#map=13/55.9792/37.1920

There no “streets” at all here, it uses “Korean” style (block-building addressing): osm.org/way/167350593/history

but they are so minimal that data users shouldn’t treat them separately in most cases.

Again, it is up to data consumers: if they want more features, or if they want simple processing/speed.

addr:system tag

Based on what was said above, I think easiest solution would be in additional tag, not in re-tagging of NA addresses (it would be easy to convince people with statistical background, but almost impossible to explain this minimal difference in styles at OSM scale):

• addr:system=european
• addr:system=na
• addr:system=korean

Yes this tag is absolutely optional, similar to how addr:postcode=* has no effect on most search results. If we see no use in postal codes, It doesn’t mean that we should remove this information from database. Same about addr:system, it adds utility and possibilities for those who want them.

To me, OSM would win from clear distinction between european/na/other system.

addr:system=* can be applied to lowest admin_level=* boundaries (biggest suitable number) in hierarchy for simplicity.

As for European autocompletion, If I enter “123”, then:

• it makes sense to suggest: 121, 125
• it makes sense to suggest: 123A, 123B, 123C
• 122, 124 are completely meaningless or should be ranked after other variants (it is unlikely that I will make mistake in odd/even rule)

BUT!

To implement this is Portugal you have to check if you are not in one of the exceptional areas. In order to do this:

• every single developer must maintain list: (address style - area)
• explicit tag can provide a direct answer about what rule set to follow

Does it makes sense why European system is different from NA? They have different use cases (and some statistical properties):

• NA tells you “X meters from start of the street”
• European tells you “this building was planned as number X from the beginning of the street”
• Korean(?) is about “first find this block, then find this building”

In general, a more clever auto-complete or an user interface:

• In NA system it will display your GEO position in the road and spatially placed house-numbers (since its matters in NA version)
• in European system house-numbers won’t get you even an estimate of position (order over proximity)

I hope you would argue that region-based addressing (in Korea or in some cities) is completely different from NA and European style? Unfortunately, we don’t have all details about this topic.

There should be hint for software “aha this house-number in Korean style”. Right now, all developers can do is to re-study topic every time, or make a guess about rules in some territory.

This knowledge should be explicit in data, so it can be processes more robustly.

And yes, we don’t have 5-digit numbers, but in what way would that make a difference for data users?

I don’t have good ideas, but IN US you should have only numeric keyboard, while in EU you have to use other symbols more often.

We need stats: how often numbers used in NA addresses vs how often they used in European house-numbers.

If there no difference in every single territory, then I give up. Otherwise, it may speed up input of house numbers.

osm.org/way/311932649

But I was able to hack Nominatim (a second link in the results) :)

• osm.org/search?query=Bosstraat%2C%202#map=19/50.92346/3.06045
• osm.org/search?query=Bosstraat%202#map=19/50.92346/3.06045

Or I don’t understand what exactly wrong with this example.

Europe also has some distance based numbers. You mention Portugal, but I know several villages in France that also use that schema.

Keyword here is “some” villages and “several” villages. I never denied this NA-style is present in Europe, but we should tag it better.

Then there are also streets where numbers take “jumps” on crossings. Not often by 100, but rounding up to the nearest multiple of 10 happens sometimes (note that in taginfo, the numbers 10, 20, 30 are also everytime more popular than 9, 19, 29, which shows my point).

• Europe RARELY uses Multiples of 10 or skips tens of numbers but
• NA approach OFTEN uses multiples of 100 or even 1000.

Then we also have things like bis-numbers. Where houses are build between adjecent numbers (f.e. new houses between 29 and 31), and the number gets an extra letter (29A, 29B, 29C, …).

Additional symbols are typical to both schemes (NA sometimes uses numbers instead of letters)

housenumbers in Europe are far from uniform

In terms of spatial proximity between consequent house numbers? I think they are more uniform, but of course I had no time to observe each of 60M cases.

Other problems is that improperly tagged objects screw statistic and you have no real understanding why or where bases on planet-wide stats

But I doubt it’s different enough to need a new schema.

Well maybe not a completely new schema but some tag to split odd/even numbering from proximity-based and grid-based?

Mostly/only in NA you will see 12345 housenumbers

More examples why Europe is so different:

• http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/eEG
• http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/eEJ
• http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/eEM

Gre-kow, молоток!

Вадимом Радченко большое спасибо! Свежие снимки всегда пригодятся для целей OSM!

По последнему абзацу. Шутка в том, что шаблоны эти нафиг не нужны. Не было бы одарённых админов в лице Harry Wood, глядишь и попробовали бы расширение установить:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Forms https://habrahabr.ru/post/181474/

Ничего неподъёмного там нет, наоборот всё упрощается для пользователей.

Nice to see my edits in more visual way! :) There many more default shortcuts uncovered by this image.

Anyone can join editing this (still incomplete) page: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Shortcuts!

а эти самые переходные дорожки отмечаем, что они являются боковыми для проезжей части footway=sidewalk

Не совсем точно, а может быть и вредно.

highway=footway + footway=sidewalk некоторыми в России обозначался для тротуаров “встык” к проезжей части. Это более точное определение.

Зачем нужно “встык” и “по другому”? - потому что в ПДД есть термин “обочина” - потому что по “обочинам” часто ходить опаснее чем по обычным highway=footway (маршрут можно не прокладывать по footway=sidewalk)

С подходом footway=sidewalk на “любом отмеченном тротуаре отдельной линией” эти преимущества теряются. Поэтому указывайте хотя-бы в description “встык к ПЧ” либо тег придумайте если видите этот подход.

Ещё раз, классифицировали на: 1. highway=footway - любые тротуары 2. highway=footway + footway=sidewalk - тротуары “встык” к ПЧ

Колоссальное повышение эффективности. Я сам давно Vespucci не пробовал, но моему опыту разница будет не более чем в два раза по врмени-действиям:

Метод LLlypuk82 имеет недостаток с заметками: это потеря по времени на ввод промежуточной информации. Я фотки/видео в JOSM правлю, без notes-заметок.

• тут неудобный тачскрин (телефон)
• там нужно повторно смотреть картинки (теряется время, но чуть-чуть) зато печатать удобнее (выигрыш по времени)

Особенно когда JOSM подстказывает предыдущие теги типовых подъездов в Vespucci есть такое сейчас?

@woodpeck, I consider your statements as offensive and unproductive:

• you are not discussing topic (how to improve wiki; concrete edits) but constantly attack my person / my social status / popularity of some views
• you are not assuming good faith in my edits “but it is obvious that if you are allowed to edit the Wiki, trouble ensues”

Read osm.wiki/Etiquette again please.

Unlike you, other people find my edits actually useful: “Your edits were indeed useful and welcome (for the most part)” (yes there things we could improve on; both in content and our interaction: namely nobody publicly said “thank you” for my edits)

But I more humble about it and not complain about it at every step for some reason. Maybe some people are not able to comment my user page; maybe some people not aware about good manners; maybe some people don’t have time for this.

@woodpeck, my respond will look as personal attack. But please, in the end it is always one person responsible to something. I cannot point to actions without pointing to concrete people/statements/quotes.

Problem with Harry is that HE was perfectly capable to mitigate ANY of questionable edits/misunderstandings but decided to bermaban me despite all of my efforts to remind of MANY ALTERNATIVES.

Unfortunately Harry was repeatedly suppressing any of alternative given to him as admin, repeatedly: “preventing any change to wiki” “Maybe the admins can consider your technical suggestions if you leave them time. I am neither admin and as a programmer neither php nor mediawiki fan and can not help there.”

Is this what dedicated/capable admin would do?

I think you should simply do something else

You fail to realize that I won’t.

If it is not your priority to teach people their tools, that’s not my fault.

It is not my fault you are not able to teach them efficiently instead of creating FAQ pages.

I’m fine with your attitude “that I fully support keeping you off the Wiki for eternity”, there many people like you who do nothing to improve situation but endlessly rant about temporal inconvinience and without discussing real alternatives.

My permaban at wiki.openstreetmap.org means that there SOME incompetent admins who decided to ban me, nothing else.

What I’m doing right now

Right now I’m slowly updating JOSM wiki (josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki) with beginner materials.

I don’t care how many people my edits will “offend” again. How adding/restructuring wiki can offend anyone??? If some content was requested for years, someone have to resolve it.

if Harry fails to respond to admin requests/fill-full 2-year old requests from the community that’s not my fault. It doesn’t matter if it was intentional or not.

More personal responds/more context here: 1 2

That’s because if people are not kind to each other, then they won’t be able to work together, and the community will crumble.

Too bad that I got 0 positive responds about my edits that were “Your edits were indeed useful and welcome (for the most part)” (DaCor).

That’s why Wikipedia has https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Thank_you guideline

I’m simply pointing out places you directly contradict yourself.

True. Okay, I forgot to mention context once and you did it once let’s not repeat this mistake.

finding it very hard to accept that the majority of people disagree with you

This view was repeatedly forced by Harry in his over-aggressive statements. I’m sorry that it happened.

I never ignored ANY request my user page! No matter how minor this request was, I tried to answer in time first, but without wasting everyone time around “politeness”.

Well I always realize that sometimes my views are not popular or not supported at least for some periods in time.

I’m okay that my views are unpopular. Not everyone teaches or have interest to teach others in OpenStreetMap. The same way, not everyone have interest to have current teaching material in his language (non-English).

English is only used as Lingua franca between Russian, Japanese, Italian, German to share their bits of knowledge.

Every community has their own teaching materials in their language and not based on English text, because there weren’t any good single resource for beginners (pre 2013 or 2014; mainly before changes by Cantho). Yes wiki was THAT outdated/irrelevant.

All of your rants seem to be very individual and personal.

You cannot discus actions of people without discussing themselves or providing context? You cannot quote words without context/attaching it to real person.

For example here it what “tripping point” (Harry Wood statement) is all about:

And I don’t care about permaban requests at @talk lists from incompetent people who revert any slightest minor organizational charges at wiki without any reasonable discussion but toxic comments at my user page “we are discussing your worthless/useless edits here <>” (SIC!):

“Tripping point”

osm.wiki/w/index.php?title=RU:Tag:amenity%3Dpayment_terminal&action=history osm.wiki/w/index.php?title=Imagery_Offset_Database&action=history osm.wiki/w/index.php?title=RU:Google_Map_Maker&action=history https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2015-May/072858.html

I cannot help people Illya Zverev how wiki editing/organizaion/collaboration works.

It is easier to edit wiki/single page at wiki alone than to communicate and fill-full endless stream of requests “what are your plants during edit X”? Especially if this steam contains insane people like Zverik who press “revert” if there any slight misunderstanding from his part

You can clearly see it from “RU:Google_Map_Maker” history.

He was suppressing creation of 2 pages instead of one that messes everything under single title and repeatedly wasted my time by pressing revert button mid-edits. Here is more context: osm.wiki/Wikimapia

Harry decided not only to ignore his message and recognised it as “tripping point” and banned me for 3 months instead of ignoring/banning Zverik who isn’t unable to say a single word about his intentions but to rant at my user page and abuse revert button.

Good job Harry, your name will be tied together will Zverik forever. With person who thinks it is okay to abuse people left and right at every step or when nobody watches you:

http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=157470#p157470:

I wonder why you are in your 33 with 2 childs sit here instead of family-job, and act like schoolchild. Do something useful

This person BTW, pretends to represent Russian community. Anyone with free time and basic knowledge of English will do better than Zverik unfortunately not everyone is able to edit mediawiki or busy with their main job in OpenStreetMap.

Yes, some comments are unnecessary personal (I’m not happy about it, if you haven’t noticed), it is so that there always company/person behind any action/statement.

var-alex, да было такое

http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=415689#p415689 http://vitalts.ws/osm/OsmAndMapCreator.zip

Описал запрос как обойтись без fixme.

@Amaroussi, from my perspective, we should always re-evaluate our current needs and not to suppress anyone who disagrees or who abstains any change.

From my experience we shouldn’t suppress any unpopular ideas, otherwise we will have only N major communities who dictate anyone else.

Some practices will slow us down more than we really need.

For example, it hard to decide what is polite or what is impolite within different communities, languages and cultures. You simply cannot be polite to every single person on earth if you speak sufficiently long enough. While performing the same actions, requirements and expectations from you will differ significantly.

AND AS ALWAYS YOU IGNORE THAT I SAID I’M SORRY

d1g, I understand the reasoning behind your posts/comments, but please don’t insult people, even if you think they deserve it @gileri, I’m, sorry it’s a big stress for me.(from my POV/right now).

Why does I never see “Thank you for you edits” at my talk page from DaCor? Why he thinks it is okay to talk shit behind my back and not directly with me? How it will help anyone?

I’m big boy to explain my position, okay? You can speak with me, not only it’s simple, it may be productive and you may actually know my POV and not someone else.

robert, you are grandmaster in creating propaganda, please join Zverik next time again https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2015-May/072858.html

Talk shit about people without quotes. Quote messages without context. Point only to the worst parts. Never assume good faith. This is what OpenStreetMap wants from you, just ignore osm.wiki/Etiquette completely

Zverik have 0 interest in OSM wiki he abuses anyone who starts editing it in Russian namespace and ignores any explanation, no matter how many A4 pages you waste to explain what do you want to make with wiki.

Basically he ignored what M!dgard said to you: proposals+tag database and not “how to map” pages.

1. Zverik continues to create propoganda about me in 05’2015 when I’m not editing this page anymore after DWG explanation osm.wiki/w/index.php?title=RU:%D0%9A%D0%B0%D0%BA_%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%8C&action=history
2. DWG conflict resolution was is to provide alternative to “how to map” page. Personally I see alternative in tag database, “How to map” page should be created automatically and not manually.

He is extremely abusive in Russian forum. He never assumes good faith. In questionable situations he never discusses the topic, he always uses commutation style “Hey you idiot you failed here, <>” explicitly or implicitly. He never changed his communication style for 4 years, no matter how hard he tries to hide it, in any language.

I suggest to additionally ban Zverik at talk@ list. His messages are wiped from time to time at Russian forum, happily we he have good mods now.

Usually English speakers are the first who use “rude” words at talk pages or start using aggressive tone/ad homem comments !

osm.wiki/User_talk:Xxzme#Toilet_holding_tank_pages

in 1rd message he actually tried to be polite / good faith assumption in 2nd message I never attempted to be rude. I said “with best regards” but you will ignore it and BERMABAN ME afterwards. in 3rd message Brycenesbitt says “messy” - is it nice assumption of edits in good faith? in 4rd message I’m trying to explain how changes should be done without being rude and quote his words, unlike him in 5 message he starts to talk not only about mess but also about reverts in 6 message I give up to be polite, he is too aggressive and ignores any of my explanations in 7 message he finishes discussion with mess. Thank you so much for communication Brycenesbitt now you can speak anything about me and only quote my 6rd message and ignore anything else I tried to explain before.

I note though actually you seem (?) to have edited the main text of this and possibly removed the most scathing remarks. I wonder if a cache exists somewhere on the web of the original version. Would be interesting to see.

I minorly corrected my English and added note that M!dgard replied to in PM. Please don’t create conspiracy theories on top of that. Nobody can edit comments to this post.

Is this a joke or are you attempting to backpedal?

I’M NOT! I always attacked his statements and his arguments, but not himself. I didn’t consider that using/or not using polite words would be so important during or after my edits.

I never considered that edits in good faith (even bold edits; even edits for 20-30 language as once) should be defended by it’s author, Or reason why I should I even rationale number of my edits to anyone. I don’t really have ways to defend myself other than to point to other non-English speakers who were following my edits.

Verdi got negative portion at his user page too. He wasn’t happy about it, but I understand him and his actions. Under no circumstances I will say a single bad word about him, when knowing what he actually did to wiki. Even if you will provide links where Verdy is negative or his comments or just fighting some1else edits without discussion. It is so because Verdy was busy doing big changes and to speak long inspiring or impressive speeches and person who were reverting without discussion most likely weren’t aware of them.

Not only it is time consuming to use “polite” words or “nice” tone in any language but additionally my limited proficiency in English adds up so as any other editor who tries not to make edits in English namespace just not to be ashamed of. I even cannot protect myself so actively or efficiently as you attack me using your native language.

If there were active/request from Russian admin at wiki.openstreetmap.org then I would use short Russian to explain my ideas as I speak with Kachkaev. And won’t use any questionable speech/”blatantly rude” English when there no need for his.

You may laugh but I never knew “abrasive” word.

I’m not native English speaker, I never stated that I can perfectly explain my ideas or my words cannot be considered as “rude” or what else words do you use or norms of your language. Or which words are “safe” to use and when.

Here is how try to use it without being rude to anyone osm.wiki/User_talk:Xxzme#osm_website_.22is_just_fine.22

Is there something offensive I said to Ziltoidium? osm.wiki/User_talk:Xxzme#weeklyosm

If you always point to the worst parts of the something, what do expect to see? You are creating propaganda for yourself and framing argument without real context about what happened before or conditions when some words were spoken.

I want to remind you guys:

• Assume good faith
• No conspiracy theories
• Communicate with the same respect you would utilize in person

osm.wiki/Etiquette

Etiquette never said “BE PERFECT”, “BE AS NICE AS HARRY WOOD”, “don’t use rude words”. Please reconsider this again and why authors of this page said so .

@DaCor

I’m not attacking Harry. He did and does great things as HOT member, but his statements about my “rudeness” can be drastically manipulated in either direction. Especially when you talk about me without real examples/links. You can easily create make propaganda, if you really have interest in this or just misunderstood my tone/language ability/or just missed something but considered that your thought as ultimate true under every condition.

I try to do my best and explain how his argumentation is wrong, but he constantly ignores my counter-arguments and ask me social questions which from his POV are relevant (he is CWG member/head).

Harry is biased and so I’m

Harry biased and he focused on topics “How to be nice with people”, “Lets resolve social interaction”.

And my head full of “How to update wiki”, “How to extend it”, “How to make in easy to translate”, “How to make it easy to manage”, “How not to go insane with current requirements at wiki”, “How to account stale translations”

My followers able to achieve 30-60K nodes PER 3 FIRST MONTHS.

How many of you can say that they are teaching techniques/tools so efficiently?

He constantly speaks in terms of his world and never mentions any of my topics or my problems. Do you see it better now?

M!dgard agrees with me

For example, M!dgard cannot join me with edits, because he said to be busy IRL right now and here is from PMs:

It’s a fact that keeping content up-to-date across different languages is a real pain in the *** though, and finding or exploring content is not easy. The proposal categories you made are a good help for the latter. Also I know that you have done many other things that I don’t know about. Ultimately I believe MediaWiki is not a great solution for the OSM documentation. Really we should have a platform that allows for a tag database with built-in support for proposals and other content such as proposals and help pages about editors and such,

It’s OUR problems, not only mine. There many translators who followed my edits. Including non popular languages (<3M or <15M).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum - if 9 of 10 doesn’t see problem with something it doesn’t that problem doesn’t exists.

And instead of discussing technical matters in detail or how should we plan changes together Harry requests my personal info?..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy#.22Not_invented_here.22

If 9 our 10 people never corrected error that doesn’t mean that weren’t any ever. Tone or rudeness is completely irrelevant.

Does Harry even aware of his false argumentation “you are editing too much” “it was fine, don’t touch it”?

And this strange discussion was constantly reappearing for unknown to me reason.

but you need to be able to work with people.

I do. I was doing it, until I got interrupted.

by work I mean WORK osm.wiki/Talk:They_are_using_OpenStreetMap osm.wiki/Talk:Wiki_organisation#Replace_most_of_switch2osm.org_links_with_Deploying_your_own_Slippy_Map osm.wiki/Talk:Wiki#Request_for_namespace_with_machine-readable_definitions_.28XSD:.29

and not useless but “polite” discussions osm.wiki/Category_talk:Editing

Do you know why “Editing” is empty? Because you have new and clean categories osm.wiki/Category:Guide

So that translators can “bump” their translations from “outdated” Category:Editing to Category:Guide.

It looks like pain in the a**, doesn’t? Is there “drafts” at my user page would be better for anyone who follow my edits? It will be painful, there no option without helpful plugins/without privileges.

Communication style

I do not use “polite” words at all: osm.wiki/User_talk:Kachkaev#OpenStreetMap

I do argument my words whatever necessary?.

Do you still think I’m not “communicating” “nicely”? That my communication style is extremely aggressive? Or what does it really means?

My communication style it might be inappropriate as we all see right now (or at least from some perspectives). It might be awful if you ignore context or just not aware of background.

I do react to people according to their actions, facts and argumentation but independent of their verbosity or tone or their status. Does it sound reasonable? I did it my entire life.

@robert

I’m not “the only one”

Do you realize that I’m not the only one who thinks it is okay to perform update to wiki? Can you ask exactly this question to people who were following my edits? Were my actions selfish? Do you realize that there people actually WORK together with me? Or because there long-needed content at wiki.openstreetmap.org with ideas from Russian community and our/my perspective?

I’m not selfish. I do not leave any question unanswered at wiki. If I didn’t reply somewhere I haven’t seen it. Ofc, I do react to ANY request. This is what collaboration at wiki is all about. I read every! comment in wiki history during my edits/follow history.

Do you still think it is only MY opinion or do I never evaluate considerations of others? Or I’m “failing to communicate SO DRASTICALLY” - and here bandwagon begins again